Adventuring - Permadeath

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Poisonous
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Poisonous » Sun May 22, 2016 3:40 pm

What if permadeath was optional, but there was some sort of benefit to opting-in to a permadeath system? Though I can't imagine what benefit would be fair. Another server I played at had a food/energy/sleep/etc system that had to be maintained to stay alive, but it was optional. It did provide benefits if you opted in, however.

The trouble with that is, Raises should still work for everyone unless the PC is personally choosing not to return. Perhaps in that case permadeath would simply mean no 'free' Respawns.
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Ostheim
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Ostheim » Sun May 22, 2016 4:06 pm

Could always be increased XP gain, I suppose. Higher risker, higher reward. That said, that stops being 'fair' at level eight, where you get all of the risk and none of the reward anymore.

Ultimately I think this is something that just has to differ based on opinion. I personally think letting a character go when their story has been told to your liking and expectation is the best service you can do for them, lest they become stagnant and unfulfilling to play. Some players can accomplish this very quickly, others over months or even a year or so.
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Loreweaver
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Loreweaver » Sun May 22, 2016 4:34 pm

The permadeath system we have in place at the moment is mostly theoretical, as it takes a series of deaths before you're even in the danger zone and so you have plenty of time to see it coming and get the Greater Restoration spell you need. You can have others pay for it if necessary. We can't really do without because at some point lowering attributes has no effect anymore, but even if you know you won't get the resources together, it's far more likely a character is voluntarily retired well before the mechanical enforcement kicks in.

The general idea of the death system is that character death should always be the result of mistakes rather than lag or similar misfortunes, including unfortunate rolls. That's why there is a respawn option with a cooldown. It's not entirely without consequences but most of the time it's free, and if you get killed while it's on cooldown, well, you knew adventuring was going to be extra risky for a while and did it anyway. Alternatively, you were soloing (also extra risky and you knew it) or had your entire party wiped or driven off - nearly always the result of more than a few unfortunate decisions on the part of multiple players. Sometimes your body won't be raised because no one knows your character is dead, or the corpse goes unrecognized, or it's not considered worth the money. Level 2 is particularly dangerous because of this. But if you've taken the time to make some allies or arrangements you'll usually be fine.

Because of this, character death is primarily a player's own choice. I think whenever you create a character it's important to ask yourself how you'd imagine that character's going to die, both so you're prepared for the possibility and so you can keep an eye out for opportunities to expire dramatically. Sometimes PvP or DM events may lead to permadeath but you should have an option to avoid this (even if it means licking the boots of an enemy or hiding in a basement until the event is over). Your character's death is therefore your own responsibility first and foremost; make it an interesting one.

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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Silver Snow » Sun May 22, 2016 7:33 pm

I see Perma as a very viable end for characters. Two of my current set were actually made with that end as an ooc goal, even, after some of their stories got to advance. In my mind, Perma happens to two camps of characters: those who were not great successes as far as the player's opinion goes, and those that were very cherished characters that deserved a fitting end, tragic or serene and anything in between. Either the character was not known, and so Perma was a formality, or was very known and thus the Perma had an actual impact on those the character had relationships with. That's the most important part to me, making sure that if I pretty much commit a character to death for good, that death has an RP impact that adds RP and flavors it for others going forward. I see RP as something we do not for just ourselves, and share our characters for the benefit of others, and so dramatic a thing as actual death should be impactful on those others.

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blatob
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby blatob » Sun May 22, 2016 8:10 pm

Don't we already have this system? Just don't raise the PC, bury him and you are done, if that's your preference.

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Feronius
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Feronius » Sun May 22, 2016 11:46 pm

In response to the original post. Why not? Because it takes a very significant time investment (in months) to level up a single character. This makes killing off a character permanently not something that is done lightly or often.
On top of that many players prefer to focus on actively playing only one character, which can make killing them off a pretty big deal.

I don't recall the exact math, but I believe it required at least 9 months (in real life) before you are able get a character to the max level. That is assuming you are playing and leveling actively and are managing to keep up with the XP cap.
When you think about it, with there only being 8 levels total, that rate of level progression is kind of insane(ly slow). It seems only logical that permanent characters deaths are rare as a result, as the thought of having to level up all over again can be daunting.

Class mechanics/ spells at your disposal during the lower levels are not particularly exciting either, most classes only have 2-4 actively used abilities/ spells for the first several months of playing a character. Which does not help sell the idea of leveling a new character.
Of course great RP helps make up for this, but strictly from a gameplay point of view 3 months of casting the same spells does get old.


Or maybe it's simply that players grow attached to their character(s). Still, I do believe the slow level progression plays a big part.
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Ataraxia
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Ataraxia » Mon May 23, 2016 7:22 am

I think having a permadeath system depends on your priorities regarding the way you want to approach storytelling and the player experience. I've played on a server that was open-pvp at all times and as long as you had an IC reason to wish death on someone, you could orchestrate homicide as freely as you wanted. It was a tense atmosphere, constantly looking over your shoulder and making allies and dealing with frequent betrayals. It was a fun atmosphere where none of my characters died but it wasn't the case for those that my character killed in self defense. A few players quit over their characters dying, which was a bit unfortunate. What is relevant to the threat was this: Knowing a character could die anytime was balanced by the compensation a player received if their character died. If it happened, the player got a few levels and some starting gold to ease their integration with the new character.

Advancing a story is my priority so if permadeath happened, I think it should be part of a plot that gives meaning to the character's death.
Yeah I know meaningless deaths are part of the "realism/believable" aspect but those tend to be forgotten, and it saddens me that a few characters under the scattered tombstones are rarely mentioned (with perhaps good reason, considering if no one wants you to come back to life or knows you, you're bound to stay six feet under). Dying as part of a plot feels much more interesting. Gives a fun final act for a character that you can be proud of as their player.

On another server, the one I came from. There was a moment when all the members of a group that was the last line of defense against a very daunting threat realized that they would not get out of their final showdown alive. Their final moments together made me cry behind my screen, and seeing those characters know their fate but not turn away from their destiny shone light on a very hidden part of their personalities that, yes, had been confronted very often with death, but never faced with the possibility of their own. The best part was no one would be left alive to tell their tale but it still would had meaning to all of us. (Props to Vent for running that plotline that unfortunately never got completed for logistical reasons). That was another take on permadeath - where characters knew the risks of their actions and had the choice to go forward or turn back.

tl;dr yes the realism factor is interesting and flirting with permadeath gives you a certain adrenaline rush that can highly heighten the feeling of accomplishment, but it can also crush the history of your character into nothingness that no one will remember. I think it could be a known risk taken consciously to get the best of both worlds.

There's also the permanent-wounds idea I suggested on another thread, or another way to scar/impair a character without having to end their story prematurely.

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Tailos
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Tailos » Mon May 23, 2016 8:33 pm

I would personally not be against permadeath, however that's easy for me to say when playing a main who rarely leaves Sarshel. That said, on the few occasions I have, the rewards for jumping into a dungeon would certainly not be good enough to keep me playing an adventurer.

Of course, I'm limited to low level dungeons so take from that what you will.

I used to play permadeath PWs and while lag and other problems out of control may cause a wrongful death, it appeared that in >90% it was due to player error. So I don't truly think it's a worthy enough reason to avoid permadeath alone.

However, how does one roleplay a young and inexperienced warrior without making small mistakes like incorrect placement in battle? Small things shouldn't kill you but cumulatively, sure - that's what generally causes party wipes. I'd rather not see a town full of veterans or warlords at level 1.

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Poisonous
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Poisonous » Mon May 23, 2016 9:28 pm

Tailos wrote:However, how does one roleplay a young and inexperienced warrior without making small mistakes like incorrect placement in battle? Small things shouldn't kill you but cumulatively, sure - that's what generally causes party wipes. I'd rather not see a town full of veterans or warlords at level 1.
That's a pretty fair point.
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Vogelens
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Vogelens » Mon May 23, 2016 9:39 pm

Emotes can go a long way with that. As well as attitude, posture.

When you get hit in combat, simply emote/RP it out as a mistake, due to inexperience. Things like that, without mechanically putting yourself in needless risk mechanically, with that not making sense.
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