Adventuring - Permadeath

For discussion, feedback, praises, criticism, concerns or suggestions on topics in Offline RP, Character Backgrounds or general roleplay.
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Tailos
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Tailos » Mon May 23, 2016 9:44 pm

Emotes are great. I agree.

But they're supplementary to a character's action mechanically. We make our cowardly PCs hide behind corners or run into battle last, also disadvantageous for a team, so I've no problem putting my PC in a low risk situation thats disadvantageous to my PC for the same reason. Only fair, right?

Vogelens
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Vogelens » Mon May 23, 2016 9:47 pm

Oh, sure. I have seen people recklessly into battle because it fitted the RP. If you make mistakes on purpose and RP it out, that also works. I merely gave an example how to RP out being inexperienced, as well. :P
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Tailos
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Tailos » Mon May 23, 2016 9:55 pm

Fair point, Vog. :)

I guess I just find it more believable to see a PC actually make a mistake beyond just saying it happened via emotes, particularly as there are more obvious consequences as a result.

As an aside, it has been mentioned about PCs having stories to finish before retiring. Is it cruel to think that sometimes, stories just get left untold due to risks inherent in adventuring...?

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Kerstman
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Kerstman » Tue May 24, 2016 6:17 am

Tailos wrote:
As an aside, it has been mentioned about PCs having stories to finish before retiring. Is it cruel to think that sometimes, stories just get left untold due to risks inherent in adventuring...?
I think it can be. I am a player that plays RPG's for the stories from beginning to end, whether it is single player or multiplayer. Seeking out adventure and dangers are key in making it interesting and seeing a character grow and its story develop do this as well. The difference between SP and MP is that for the former it is pretty much set out for you and in MP you have more freedom and there are more random factors, which is quite awesome all the same. In SP it ends when the final and main quest is resolved. In MP I feel it should end when I decide there is nothing more to achieve for my character or when I decide there shall be a fitting ending to my character's tale. I love all the unexpected events, struggles, downfalls and successes that happen along the road and which I can only influence for so much, but the closing of the book should be my call. It is a game made for enjoyment and such is the way I enjoy it the most. Seeing a character's tale end prematurely would feel quite similar to me like playing an awesome single player RPG that suddenly and abruptly ends with a 'poof' at 60% of the main story progress.

Mind you, this is very much my opinion and I just wanted to provide this, since I have not seen many react yet who share a similar perspective.
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby OldBear » Tue May 24, 2016 4:15 pm

I really hesitated to enter my thoughts here. But decided to do so anyway. I am very much against perma death unless I choose to end the character or the character is made from the beginning to have the possibility of a short life span. On a previous world, I made a character designed to be evil, designed to go as far as he could, but with the very real possibility of death for him. In fact he held up a few characters, nearly killed one with a single blow and ended up with a paladin on his tail. It was a glorious ending battle that he lost.

Now I may choose to do that again or not. But the important factor I think, is that it is my choice. Yes here I had a character who went on a grand adventure that could have ended in a party wipe. The chances of recovery however were there, slim but there. We were all warned that it might end with a party wipe and no one would know where we were. I chose to go, but was not forced to. Here unless you fall below a certain level of attributes, you have the chance or recovery. Granted if you choose to alienate the server, no one may raise you, but that for most characters is doubtful. It may take some time, but a raise is always possible. I think this balance is appropriate and I appreciate that in this world, the choice of my character's perma death is for the most part solely in my hands.

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Copper Dragon
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Copper Dragon » Tue May 24, 2016 8:04 pm

There is a masochistic pleasure in killing off your character.

On your own terms, of course.

Some are satisfied by a less than heroic or fulfilling death - like Tailos says, letting your PC suffer for their very much in-character mistakes - while some characters deserve a grand finale, we feel. Last year I permakilled the only PC in my vault at the time, a PC that had been on TER since its launch; and have since gradually made 3 new ones, out of which 2 had to get raised (each once, if I recall correctly). Out of those two I was willing to permakill one at the time as well: Udhana, but another party member was extravagantly generous and had her revived.

I believe the spirit of this thread is to share opinions rather than try to convince each other: our diversity is a virtue, and while each of us love roleplay, enjoy D&D and appreciate TER, we need not and will not all agree on this. The death system on TER accommodates for this variation well, as the choice is still the player's when a PC truly perishes. As such, this post also isn't meant to persuade you of anything different.

For myself, I find it easier to say farewell to my characters these last years. A few players will know I joke about their (in)appropriate deaths. For one, I intentionally attach myself less to them than to previous creations. For another I am a character junky at heart, but don't dare roll out too many at the same time, and the idea of losing one character would mean making room for another concept I have been hoping to try. A third reason is that losing a character on lower levels on a low level server is not as drastic (but still potentially oh so fulfilling!) as burying a lvl 7 one and all the experience, possessions and fast friendships they've accumulated. Losing the lvl 7 to a notorious electrical trap will not feel as acceptable as the lvl 2-3 doing that. It is at those lower levels that sudden death is most likely to pounce you and that I am most ready for permadeath. For my currently oldest PC I wouldn't mind permadeath either if - as stated previously - it was an end of my design or one I could discuss with a DM first.

I wouldn't mind a few more dead friends for our adventurers; it is after all a high risk profession, and I'm convinced the death of one's allies will and has stricken the currently still active ones. It's perfectly understandable, however, that we don't all readily give up on our dear digital dolls and want them to thrive. Something may be severely off about us if we simply wanted them to perish...

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blatob
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby blatob » Wed May 25, 2016 8:56 am

Sorry, I don't see the point in this discussion at all. Maybe it's only me, but as I said before, if you want that your PC dies, just don't raise him. OOC ask other party member to bury him and you will be done with him. You can even ask them to write specific epitaph on his headstone. We already have mechanics for this, so you can permakill your PC at will. I am considerate enough to ask others where they would wish to bury their PCs and for headstone inscription. If no preference, there are always some nice dungeons that need few graves at the entrance, so just let me know. Hell, I need at least 5 or 6 for one particular place.

Now, if you are talking about obligatory permadeath, I am against it. And I will always be. My personal preference, you see... Or just reflex, after all these decades, to keep character alive. I have seen some servers with permadeath, where players were reduced to grinding one easy dungeon time over and over again, in order not to risk their PCs. I would like to avoid such instances here.

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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby rutulus » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:05 pm

In my mind, permadeath solves a couple problems while promoting another. Here's my perspective in a simple format:

Permadeath solves the following problems:

Hyperbole and The Big Lie: Death is the most difficult thing we can experience. It changes us and forces us to adapt to a new world; there was the time before the loss, and now there's the time after it, and things will never be the same. It's the end of the story. Except it's not. When you can be brought back, you've robbed that experience of its gravity, and you're left pretending that it was a big deal, when we all know it wasn't.

Moral Hazard: When the board of directors sits around the table deciding how to spend other people's money, they've got some caution but at the end of the day they know they'll be alright. The costs associated with risk are just one more business decision. After a minor headache, someone will come and clean up the mess. Sure, you'll be careful going into this dungeon. But are you as careful as an individual that knows they're mortal? Resurrection is your golden parachute.

Permadeath creates the following problems:

But I'm Not Done Telling My Story: Characters are an investment, and we all get red in the face when our investments tank. Sorry, you can't retire at 55, and now it's time to check the classifieds for new character ideas. Bummer.

In my mind, the permadeath debate boils down to individual preferences concerning these three factors. For some, losing their investment is worse than the trade offs of a potentially less impactful experience. For others, the experience doesn't have the same meaning unless there's a real risk. I'm firmly in the pro-permadeath camp, but that's just my preference.

That's my take, anyway.

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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Toros » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:54 pm

I tend to agree with Rutulus about the permadeath, though I see the value in both systems.

In some games, such as roguelikes, once you die the character is gone, period. In other games such as dark souls death is nearly meaningless, and expected as part of the learning process.

I personally prefer a system with a higher chance of permadeath and less restrictive pvp rules. I think it adds tension and realism to both RP and combat. Given my conservative playstyle and Jerek's numerous and powerful allies that is also a system in which I can be successful.

However, many people would neither be successful nor happy in that system, as it requires a strong understanding of mechanics to know which fights to pick.

TER in many ways represents a compromise, and largely a happy one. It is true though that at mid level the only final deaths are when the character chooses it.

We largely avoid the meaningless deaths we see so frequently on other servers, and to make a system with more frequent permadeath would alienate half the playerbase at least. It works best when that is the system from the start.

I'm glad we have the opportunity to discuss it but for TER I don't think changes can improve much on what we currently have.
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Poisonous
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Re: Adventuring - Permadeath

Postby Poisonous » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:53 pm

rutulus wrote:In my mind, permadeath solves a couple problems while promoting another. Here's my perspective in a simple format:

Permadeath solves the following problems:

Hyperbole and The Big Lie: Death is the most difficult thing we can experience. It changes us and forces us to adapt to a new world; there was the time before the loss, and now there's the time after it, and things will never be the same. It's the end of the story. Except it's not. When you can be brought back, you've robbed that experience of its gravity, and you're left pretending that it was a big deal, when we all know it wasn't.

Moral Hazard: When the board of directors sits around the table deciding how to spend other people's money, they've got some caution but at the end of the day they know they'll be alright. The costs associated with risk are just one more business decision. After a minor headache, someone will come and clean up the mess. Sure, you'll be careful going into this dungeon. But are you as careful as an individual that knows they're mortal? Resurrection is your golden parachute.

Permadeath creates the following problems:

But I'm Not Done Telling My Story: Characters are an investment, and we all get red in the face when our investments tank. Sorry, you can't retire at 55, and now it's time to check the classifieds for new character ideas. Bummer.

In my mind, the permadeath debate boils down to individual preferences concerning these three factors. For some, losing their investment is worse than the trade offs of a potentially less impactful experience. For others, the experience doesn't have the same meaning unless there's a real risk. I'm firmly in the pro-permadeath camp, but that's just my preference.

That's my take, anyway.
Well put! I think you summed up how I feel about it perfectly. 100% agree.

Personally, I think probably the best way to deal with it is a "three strikes" (or however many strikes) essence system like we had on Legacy. None of us want one bad day to be the end of a story, but having a set number of chances--and possibly a way to win some of those chances back--solves the conundrum for me, at least.
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