Community - Gender & Sexuality

For discussion, feedback, praises, criticism, concerns or suggestions on topics in Offline RP, Character Backgrounds or general roleplay.
Artifice
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Artifice » Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:39 pm

I feel the need, after a day of consideration, to post my thoughts on this matter and why it has made me feel uncomfortable enough not to play right now, whether that's a short term decision or a long term one. This is mostly because the 7 people who I came to the server with have all expressed their surprise with me walking away 'so easily' and being so annoyed with it, and some of them have known me for a not-insignificant number of years.

I understand that, although I've been on the server for the best part of the year, my contributions have been very nominal, with only weeks total of effective play time. That is probably why I've not seen anything at all that I feel has warranted this sort of public outcry.

I'll first explain why I came to TER. I've run a few NWN servers in my time. Most recently I came from a server, that I will not name, on which I put a lot of effort into DMing and behind-the-scenes work. On that server, I and other members of the team had to decide what to do on this very issue.

Haaa...

Obsidian Sea and every DM and member of the team who has posted here are very brave, and obviously believe very strongly in a long term vision for TER. We as a whole decided not to intervene on the subject in any way, after a very long period of internal debate and deliberation. Unfortunately, as often might, rumours and unfortunate comments spread. A significant proportion of the server I worked hard on accused me of sabotaging players and blocking those who did enjoy taking part in erotic roleplay, if that's the term that is used here. I didn't. But how they felt is not something I could ever control.

:|

Ultimately, the situation grew so that I felt I could no longer effectively DM. I helped organise my replacements on the team and stepped down. A year went by and, uncomfortable with the atmosphere and a changing demographic (one that became perhaps was more angled towards that kind of personal, relationship based roleplay) I decided to depart from the server altogether.

I've always been the sort of player who just likes to learn a setting in depth, make as deep and complex a character as my meagre writing skills allow, and just lose themselves in a solid community of people who want to roleplay to the best of their ability.

Despite all of this, I don't regret the decision of none interference that was taken. I can only pro-offer the suggestion, despite my limited experience and knowledge of the server, and my obviously failed position taking this responsibility in the past, that a ban on erotic roleplay is not the way to go. I have never engaged in that sort of roleplay in the past. However, my reasoning follows.

A roleplaying server needs a healthy community.

I have been so panicked over this very subject since I came to TER. I was worried that I might offend. I was worried that people I brought to the server might offend. A DM and admin of this server made an off hand comment, and I worried out of my mind that one of us might have done something wrong, going in so far as to contact them and apologise unnecessarily about the imagined slight. I was brought to believe that TER does seek a healthy community as a great priority. So, well, it was disappointing to see the sort of decision taken - as this thread being made was.

I knew immediately looking at it that this sort of action would instantly cause tension, both in the form of players being offended by the topic, and a deeper, malign change in how players and the team would interact.

A friend of mine, and continuing DM on my former server, recently stated something that I feel is very important to share even though it doesn't strictly agree with what I'm saying. He lamented the commonly held belief that NWN servers appeal to an increasingly small audience, and that many then assumed that NWN servers must cater to as broad an audience as possible. He believed that in his case a server needs to focus on what it does well, what it has been designed and envisioned and built towards accomplishing, rather than dilute itself to a player anarchy.

To explain what I have said in this thread, because I feel no reply, has understood me, which can only be my fault...

"Why would anyone be offended OOC?"

I'm not asking why people should become offended in general. As staff, please stop and consider the root cause of why activities like this are disruptive and uncomfortable. I understand why I too have felt it to be so, in the past. But there's a broader outlook that has to be taken when you're designing an environment that is to entertain, even if that entertainment isn't to target a certain range of activities. I won't tell you what I think you should do. I will tell you, always, to think more before taking an absolute action.

"Gay, lesbian and transgender themes and characters have been a part of the forgotten realms for decades. For DMs or players to suggest that the setting has themes that differ from that would concern me, especially on a server that claims to seek a very high level of adherence to the lore."

I said this in the context of the Forgotten Realms. Though I have had a quiet concern for some time now that TER does not quite accurately portray the setting from the books, I understand that there has to be room for interpretation and focusing on what the people who have made the server enjoy.

With that in mind, I'm going to suggest the following points to consider, which perhaps separate how TER approaches the realms and how the books approach the realms as concisely as I can. I will only post two things on this, because otherwise, I could say far, far too much. I hope this gives background to what I have said.
  • TER is a very, very low magic setting, with distrust of magic. This is despite the Forgotten Realms being full of magical phenomena, and this close to the Unapproachable East, especially this close to Rasheman, Aglarond and Thay, being full of Genius Locii, local gods inhabiting nearly every corner of the world (from old trees, caves, to famous buildings) and wandering spirits. One might argue that it should be every day life, that everyone knows and accepts.
  • Some of the Forgotten Realms most famous and powerful individuals represent a fantastical adaptation of LGBT representation. Whether this was represented well is another matter entirely and an argument that might never be resolved. Different LGBT communities feel differently about the subject. But so many people might remember, if not at the very least, that the entirety of the Elven race were alluded to be bisexual in certain AD&D and early 3.X material. That is Faerûn's oldest and most influential civilisation.
"I didn't realise it was such an issue."

I didn't. I want to apologise to anyone who worried or messaged me, thinking that what they said targeted or offended me.

:(

Well, what I will say is I have thought about this subject in the past. Not least, because I struggled with the whole general idea for... What must be years now. How do you broach this subject with a community? Is there any way it can be done well?

What I will say, quite pointedly, with respect for Obsidian Sea as he was very brave in bringing this up, is that I don't need it explaining to me why people become offended. I don't need to be told how people in the LGBT community might interpret things, or how a man or a woman or a feminist or otherwise needs to think. Even if he had the best intentions in trying to explain it to me, well... C'mon. Really? I don't want to take it as patronisation, but that was right up there with contributing to how uncomfortable this whole situation made me.

But I'm not asking for an apology. Do what you feel is best for TER. If your community is strong, and behind you, you'll go from strength to strength. That's what I want for TER.

... Aaaaand I've said it a million times recently. Just have fun everyone, treat each-other well, and remember that even if things seem awful today, we're all here because we want to play TER.
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Poisonous
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Poisonous » Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:45 pm

What I will say, quite pointedly, with respect for Obsidian Sea as he was very brave in bringing this up, is that I don't need it explaining to me why people become offended. I don't need to be told how people in the LGBT community might interpret things, or how a man or a woman or a feminist or otherwise needs to think. Even if he had the best intentions in trying to explain it to me, well... C'mon. Really? I don't want to take it as patronisation, but that was right up there with contributing to how uncomfortable this whole situation made me.
I otherwise respect what you've said here, but it's not fair to be upset that people answered a question you asked:
Artifice wrote:Why would this offend anyone OOC?
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Artifice
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Artifice » Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:57 pm

Obsidian Sea wrote:Though it is only an implication, and I won't claim it to be your intention to say otherwise when you posed this question, Artifice, something I think people the world over need to be reminded of sometimes is this: being offended is not a choice.
Then I'm sure that Obsidian Sea understands that I understand what he's saying on a greater level than quibbling over mine or his choice of words.
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Toros
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Toros » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:08 pm

Artifice wrote:-snip-
So if I am summarizing, the previous server you came from had a growing amount of ERP, decided not to intervene, and you were uncomfortable to the point that you not only stepped down but were forced to leave because of it... yet you still feel it was the right choice?

I don't think that example supports your argument. Your feelings are valid but it's not an effective persuasive point.

As a general rule, if friends that have known your for years think you're taking something too hard, it's probably best to listen to them.

From phrases in your post, I would agree with your friends.

Allow me to provide an example:
Artifice wrote:... Aaaaand I've said it a million times recently. Just have fun everyone, treat each-other well, and remember that even if things seem awful today, we're all here because we want to play TER.
Critical piece, bolded for emphasis.

Absolutely no one should have their day ruined by a discussion about fictional lesbians. It's difficult for me to understand why they would, or why people would be so offended that even for those who don't play on the server they feel a need to publicly announce they will remain gone in protest.

I respect their choice to play or not play, but my day to day life consists with dealing with victims of domestic violence, drug addicts, and an infant with 10 broken ribs currently in different stages of healing from child abuse. I mention this not to get into a pissing contest or a "children in africa are starving so clean your plate" strawman, but I genuinely do not see a reason for this level of drama from a fairly simple message.


Short version:

1) FR has always been LBGT friendly, and no one is condemning people who play lesbians or suggesting they be censored.

2) TER has a surprising amount of bisexual/homosexual women as a portion of the population.

3) We've experienced on other servers ERP-focused players playing bisexual or lesbian women more commonly than other genders and sexuality.

3) The server is better off when characters don't isolate themselves purely for ERP and instead interact with the community.


I think there's incredibly valuable discussion to be had around what we as a community want in terms of roleplay, and too much focus has been on people that play lesbians. I personally don't care what consenting adults do where I don't have to experience it, but the whole server suffers when people can't find others to RP with, which to me is always one of the biggest concerns with any sort of relationship RP. People only log in together, interact only together, and even if there's absolutely no ERP it limits roleplay opportunities.

The solution is not to tell people what they can and cannot do but to remind them to be considerate of those players who have experienced logging into the server hoping to RP but the server might as well be empty because everyone is tucked away into their own corner.

We do need to enforce roleplay standards, but that is a general rule that applies to hundreds of possible situations from avoiding 1337-speak in game, backstories that break immersion, to characters having alignment shifts due to their actions and losing powers when appropriate.


I think this topic would've been much more effective had it been introduced more broadly. I don't doubt that the feelings shared were genuine, and I am not immune to being suspicious of certain character qualities. But we as a community need to be willing to be honest and discuss concerns, because otherwise it just breeds resentment. The side effect of that is that feelings will be hurt in the process but a community is a web of relationships and relationships take work to maintain. Too often people stay silent until they're boiling over with resentment and then a productive discussion can't be had.

The most valuable thing a server has are the people who play on it, and we as the players determine how great playing on TER is. In your case specifically Artifice, I was delighted to be able to help you and your group out of a difficult situation because I know that TER can be quite dangerous for low levels relative to other places, and that people have given up on the server because of it. Our players have a long history of letting people know where tavern RP is going, and sometimes even stretching RP to help a new player's character not stay dead.

I'd greatly prefer if the community was able to reach a place where they can be open and honest but maintain perspective (in the end, it is just a game and we shouldn't let it affect us too negatively). It's not a stretch to say there were all sort of mistakes made in this thread but this certainly isn't the first time we've had disagreements.
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Artifice
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Artifice » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:25 pm

Toros wrote:
So if I am summarizing, the previous server you came from had a growing amount of ERP, decided not to intervene, and you were uncomfortable to the point that you not only stepped down but were forced to leave because of it... yet you still feel it was the right choice?
Yes.
Toros wrote: I don't think that example supports your argument. Your feelings are valid but it's not an effective persuasive point.
As I said at the start, I was writing to explain myself, not to persuade. I even added points that countered what I believe because I empathise with all sides. However...
Toros wrote: The solution is not to tell people what they can and cannot do but to remind them to be considerate of those players who have experienced logging into the server hoping to RP but the server might as well be empty because everyone is tucked away into their own corner.
I see you agree with what I've said.
Toros wrote: As a general rule, if friends that have known your for years think you're taking something too hard, it's probably best to listen to them.
Yes, which is why I explained myself to all of them at once using this thread, as well as clarified it to the people I have more recently met here.
Toros wrote: It's difficult for me to understand why they would, or why people would be so offended that even for those who don't play on the server they feel a need to publicly announce they will remain gone in protest.
It's a difficult subject, not least because some will feel like an unapologetic stance from the staff when people do feel the need to leave is a very bad precedent to set (in my experience). Again, I'm not asking for an apology. I'm just looking at the thread of people taking breaks or leaving, and this one.
Toros wrote: The most valuable thing a server has are the people who play on it, and we as the players determine how great playing on TER is.
Yep.
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Khaela Mensha Khaine
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Khaela Mensha Khaine » Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:17 pm

Precursor / Overview

So I've read right through this now, from start to finish, and it's very difficult to approach it after so much has already been said and the vicissitudes of the discussion complicate attempts to reply to it all as a whole.

Hopefully my comments are well thought out, but I do intend to express myself plainly on this matter - not because I think it's a serious topic, but because I'm fairly saddened by how much of a stir it has caused and what it has led to within the community.

With that in mind, I'm just going to raise a few points that stuck out.

I would neither glibly dismiss the reactions of the players nor would I downplay what I agree was a poorly constructed opening post. I do not think this kind of a post should have been issued by a DM, whether they made it clear or not that they were posting as a player, and posed as the individual concern of someone which has the intent of a free-format discussion. Perhaps I would have agreed that this was fine, but leading up to this the OP has now commented that the DM team are proposing and discussing action on the topic. Would this have been discussed and action proposed so quickly and readily if it was a player-raised concern? I don't know, but doubt could be raised on that note, and I think as a DM such doubt should not be able to be factored into the matter because it has the opportunity to cause rifts between the authoritative figures of the server and the players.

The tone of it has been remarked upon by numerous people and I dislike what I'm beginning to perceive is a trend of dismissing responses by suggesting that they're emotion-fueled - thereby trivializing them. This is an easy way out of having to take replies seriously and downplays the content of the post. Any response has an emotional element; the potency of the emotion does not necessarily detract from the accuracy of what is being said and it is very jarring for people to assume others' tone and emotional state through the medium of text. I would advise anyone who trivializes replies in this manner to stop. If it feels like someone is getting overly emotional on a matter, that is the time to reconsider how the matter has been approached rather than downplaying someones response by calling them out on what you can only assume is their emotional state. Perhaps even to simply refrain from commenting for a while, until people have had the opportunity to calm and consider their thoughts a little more logically - if indeed they are being overly emotional.

Why do I think the original post was poorly constructed? Because it is addressing multiple issues which I feel are not related, and which in my opinion were not communicated clearly enough as separate issues.

First issue: Gender & Sexuality

The misrepresentation of gender and sexuality. This is very objective, to begin with, and to call people out - as a whole or individually - for bad roleplay should frankly not be done in this manner whatsoever. Even if it is being put across as hypothetical or in the future tense, it is referencing in-game instances which have been noted, which means that it is referencing individuals.

Without taking the approach of a dictatorship, this is not something that can be controlled and the personal concerns that were highlighted here really must remain simply that, sadly. The only true options to regulate the issues being raised on a broad, equal scale would be absurd. Is someone going to decide who can or cannot play female character or their sexuality? Would you request an application to, as a player of a certain gender, play an opposing gender? I note also that there was much talk about male players playing female characters, yet not a single instance of a female player playing a male character has been mentioned - though there is just as much room for error in said representation, as I have experienced in the past.

You have six people who wish to play female characters and they also wish to play lesbian characters. Who decides who can and who cannot, out of these six? Would this kind of topic rear its head if six people were all playing paladins badly, or would it be handled in a different manner? Regardless of the fact that there aren't paladins in the real world and there are lesbians, it is roleplay. I would not be offended if a homosexual person was playing a heterosexual character badly, I'd just think they weren't particularly good at roleplay. But frankly, I find it nigh impossible for a man to fully understand the inner-workings of a female mind to the extent where they do a female character justice and vice-versa, and the same goes for understanding a sexual orientation that I don't share, so where does this topic really stop? What is the standard where you say it's adequate enough?

The topic was raised with a personal agenda in mind, and I really hope that this isn't rebuked because it simply was - and that is fine, but using the opinions of others to try and validate the viewpoint does not make it any less of a personal complaint. I can use quotes if it's very necessary for me to do so in reply to anyone who tries to counter that statement. There's a very clear message that the OP fears for their own morale and desire to continue on the server because of something they dislike seeing. That is fine, also, but I'm not sure anyone has had a review of server rules being considered over their personal preferences or concerns about what could happen in the future. I would first review how that could be perceived before making any concrete decisions.

Second issue: ERP & Other Romantic RP

This, I think, is actually the concern that is being raised here more than who is playing what. Erotic roleplay and how it has a tendency to draw people away from others into their own little bubbles where they 'titillate' themselves, as it has been put.

Firstly, my own opinion is that ERP is not necessary in any shape or form to progress any roleplay or any character. Sexual acts affect much in the real world, but that is mostly due to sexual prowess and bodily reactions which affect two peoples' outlook on each other. That cannot be properly simulated via text. Perhaps you could argue that you could show a tender side to a character, or a dominant side to a character, or whatever which is not prevalent elsewhere in the relationship. From my personal experience with real life partners, that is not true. Such things reveal themselves in people sharing a romantic relationship regardless over time, and can easily be represented in a non-sexual gesture either small or large, either privately or in public.

I do not, however, think that ERP for entertainment purposes is wrong or a bad thing. People roleplay for their own entertainment, people conduct erotic roleplay for their own entertainment, whatever kind of enjoyment that is. What form and shape that enjoyment takes is really up to them, so long - of course - as it is not truly offensive in some kind of disturbing taboo way. I don't think homosexual erotic roleplay is any more taboo than heterosexual erotic roleplay, and if anyone perceives these as different is, I believe, harbouring a prejudice that really shouldn't exist - especially as a DM. Not that I am implying that the OP does, this is simply a general statement.

Furthermore, having been a DM myself, I'm quite aware that a DM does not have to witness these acts unless they're taking place in the Party channel. If they're taking place in Whisper or Say they're quite easily avoided.

The only reasonable concern I see is that this kind of roleplay becomes more and more prevalent and that the community becomes sex-mad and uses it just to log in and ERP for however long then logs out afterwards, or that they take up gratuitous amounts of time doing it while other people are sat around with nothing to do, hoping to get the chance to RP. That is selfish and unfair. And to that I would say those are things which the DMs should not feel concerned about approaching people individually about. Whether they get upset or not, they're already being somewhat anti-social and are likely to continue, so there's not much harm done if they become even more anti-social. But they could also just as easily be given a revelation on how much time they're actually spending in private and snap out of it, spend more time socializing outside of their immediate circle of friends (or friend).

However I could also say that's just as relative to people doing anything else privately to the detriment of others who are being left out. If it's excessive, it's unfair.

That, I think, is the issue that should have been raised here from the very beginning. I have many times logged in and milled around for 30+ minutes on the server while there have been 5-10 people online, then given up and logged out because I couldn't find a soul. I didn't question what they were doing, because frankly it doesn't matter. All that matters is that I was alone with no way of finding other people and there's very little else to do on the server without some form of social interaction.

Closing Thoughts

This is not an attack at anyone, especially not Obsidian Sea. To him I would say this directly: None of this is failing to recognize your contributions to the server or the effort you put into it. I'm immeasurably grateful for what assistance and encouragement you've given me, especially when I started on the server; I do not think you're a bad person in the slightest. Your events have been outstanding from what I've seen and I'm 100% sure you genuinely care about the community and the server. It shows especially on the forums with your activity in the IC threads people have made and in-game also. I understand the concerns you actually have and respect them, even share some to a degree; I've seen such things happen to servers before and I do understand what you were actually getting at. I cannot help but feel, however, that you dropped the ball on this and approached it from the wrong angle entirely.

To those who supported those views I think you were quite careless in what you agreed to. Some of the topics that were being related here, like the LGBT community, seemed very out of place on something as simple as a roleplaying community when to my knowledge no-one from the LGBT community has spoken out as being offended by others' roleplay, so I don't quite know why that's even something being brought into the discussion. Frankly I think you'd have to be overly sensitive indeed to get offended by someone's representation of your sexuality or gender, unless it was truly obnoxiously and quite clearly deliberately wrong.

Throwing around statistics on the numbers of a certain sexual orientation within the population of a city, talking about something becoming a fad, all of this really means nothing in a roleplay server. It is not grossly misrepresenting any Forgotten Realms lore, it is not the accountability of one player for the actions of others who just so happen to do the same thing they have done. If I roll a gnome and then suddenly six other people roll gnomes, that is not an issue. The motivation behind it is irrelevant. I want to play a gnome. I shouldn't be penalized for what others do or why out of the blue, nor should I feel guilty about doing so because someone is not happy with the amount of gnomes they see.

Again, I understand the underlying concern but really it's not something that can be addressed in a fairly casual, public manner as this. Many of the comments really just don't seem properly considered, sometimes careless - though of course I'm aware much has been apologized for, and rightly so, there has been damage done and the creation of a thread such as this should be more carefully considered in future, which is the point I am trying to drive by highlighting this.

I would hope that no-one ostracizes me for speaking my mind, but at the same time the welfare of this server and the players' feelings are fairly important to me as I like this server very much and I do not like to see so many people tap out because of something like this. If I'm ostracized in any way, fair enough. I feel quite strongly on this matter.

And just to bring a little more clarity to my intentions: I am a heterosexual male who plays heterosexual male characters. I don't like misrepresenting a gender or sexual orientation and I'm uncomfortable with even trying, but I am very open-minded towards other views, interests and beliefs. I can very much understand how anyone would now be extremely uncomfortable roleplaying when they feel like at any time a DM or group of DMs could be watching over them with a judgemental air of distaste. That would certainly put me off, and I think that is another thing that should be considered quite seriously both now and in future when addressing something like this where players' roleplay is called into question.

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Poisonous
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Poisonous » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:11 pm

Spoiler:
I'm on my phone at work break so a few quick comments. I am on phone so will sound terse, this is absolutely not the case, sorry for how it sounds. I'm glad you've chosen to be part of the discussion, and you raise fair points.

Why have you assumed no LGBT people have spoken up in agreement with OP? What if you're wrong?

You assumed that DM capabilities regarding serverwide chat are the same as the servers you've dmed at. During the brief times I dmed here, and I know other ex dms have done this as well, I've listened to all chat on the server so I can respond to ... well, what's going on online. I toggle it off if exotic rp starts or sounds like it might start, but it did get disheartening how much there would be at times.

I don't agree with banning lesbians or anything, to me that's absurd, I'd just like folks to be mindful.
Last edited by Poisonous on Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Khaela Mensha Khaine
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Khaela Mensha Khaine » Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:29 pm

Poisonous wrote:Why have you assumed no LGBT people have spoken up in agreement with OP? What if you're wrong?
Khaela Mensha Khaine wrote:seemed very out of place on something as simple as a roleplaying community when to my knowledge no-one from the LGBT community has spoken out as being offended by others' roleplay, so I don't quite know why that's even something being brought into the discussion.
I did cover that possibility, as you can see, but it's largely irrelevant to the point I'm making.
Poisonous wrote:You assumed that DM capabilities regarding serverwide chat are the same as the servers you've dmed at.
That is true, but I very much doubted that Say and Whisper were viewable by DMs 24/7 on a hardcore roleplaying server. Even Party chat could get very text-wall on the server I DMed and it was hugely distracting if I was trying to do anything. TER is the most text-heavy server I've ever played on, hands down, by far.

The point there was that you don't have to view it, you have the choice not to. And again, if the case was that you needed people to stop ERPing in public channels then a rule could be introduced to keep it to Tells, simple and effective; I doubt anyone would grumble.

And even if Say and Whisper were constantly viewable, I think that's probably something for the DMs to discuss amongst themselves rather than throwing it to the players, do you not think?

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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Poisonous » Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:47 am

Spoiler:
Thanks for your response!

It may be largely irrelevant to the point you're making, but as I said, I'm merely making a few comments. I'm hardly going to call anyone out or give numbers on who might or might not be LGBT, but I caution giving any weight to the idea that this discussion is just the result of players getting offended on the behalf of an imaginary LGBT community. That's all I mean to say.
Even Party chat could get very text-wall on the server I DMed and it was hugely distracting if I was trying to do anything. TER is the most text-heavy server I've ever played on, hands down, by far.
It shows up in a separate window. TER is well-coded.
The point there was that you don't have to view it, you have the choice not to.
As a DM, one would be presented with two options:

1. More information to work with.
2. Less information to work with.

Some DMs, great DMs, prefer not to use the option. Other DMs, also great DMs, prefer to keep tabs on what everyone's up to. As a player I've had DMs respond to multiple actions throughout the server, rather in just one place--the great coding here enables DMs to 'multi-task'. In my brief periods of DMing, I used it to know when I should jump to an NPC nearby and react, give alignment points, or make notes about how a character might be seen by the NPC community. Other DMs have done a lot cooler things with it.

I'll state again, though, the issue isn't that 'lesbian RP' is happening. It has every right to happen, out in the open, and as much as a player sees fit. It's existence offends probably no one here. No, the concern is that it would become too much of a trend. At various points in the server's history there has been concern that the server has gone too far adventury/dungeony, or too far social RP-y. Discussions were had, arguments ensued, and ultimately the server was better off for it. It's hardly a one-sided affair, and in many cases the same people who have in this thread expressed concerns about the trend towards certain social RP have also expressed concerns about past trends of too-much-dungeoning. It's the absolute right of both staff and the playerbase to get to discuss together whether they're happy with current trends and work together as a community to come to understandings about what we collectively want. That is something I've always appreciated about my time here.

So, forget the 'lesbian' aspect and replace it with elves. Should DMs not be concerned that elf social RP, or alternatively elf dungeon RP, is taking over the server? Does it matter whether that RP is kept private or not when it begins to affect the 'feel' of the server? Should they hobble themselves or censor themselves to avoid upsetting anyone? One can absolutely criticize the people who bring up these concerns for how they do so, but at the end of the day I think that we should all be able to agree that DMs should be able to do their jobs. That job includes making the world feel alive, making it react, and working with the playerbase to maintain the intended feel of the server.

Those concerns/discussions might not always be right or presented well, and are always bound to cause issues (especially if a group of friends feels targeted by the discussion). We can criticize that, absolutely, and fair points have been made in that regard (though I may personally feel the negative reaction was disproportionate). But I think we veer into the wrong territory when we begin to ask whether the DMs should get to do their jobs.
Last edited by Poisonous on Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mother Kelda Adler, priestess of The Crying God, wife, sister, mother. [Retired: old posts here and here]
Manishie, wanderer and songbird. Not a fan of sausage. Typically in Songhall, Sayildi's, or wandering...
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Khaela Mensha Khaine
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:41 pm

Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Khaela Mensha Khaine » Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:33 am

Poisonous wrote:I'm hardly going to call anyone out or give numbers on who might or might not be LGBT, but I caution giving any weight to the idea that this discussion is just the result of players getting offended on the behalf of an imaginary LGBT community.
That wasn't the thought at all, it's one of many points that was raised. A side-note, one that the focal point of my post did not need to stand firmly on its own merit, but which I felt worth mentioning because it seemed completely out of place in this discussion.

I should further emphasise that bringing the LGBT community into the discussion where no-one from the LGBT community has been offended seems immature at best. If someone from the LGBT community had spoken out to OS then I would say that's very pertinent information to bring forward which would have actually added some credence to the nature of his post. There's no faux pas in doing that, as long as you weren't naming the individual who spoke up directly. As it stands, I have a strong suspicion this was not the case, so the comment I made is perfectly fine where it is.

I'd welcome correction on that, but as I say, it seems like another drop of the ball even if that were the case.
Poisonous wrote:As a DM, one would be presented with two options:
I'm quite aware that the more information the better as a DM, and I agree that coding seems a really awesome tool, but that entire explanation has already had an answer provided. Namely, if the case was DMs getting constantly interrupted by 'social' RP or, to put it bluntly, ERP then honestly it was a simple case of discussing this amongst other DMs and issuing a rule that erotic roleplay should be kept to Tells, where it is out of even the DMs eyes. And if Tells are not out of the DMs eyes then I think that's definitely information that should be made public, as that's invading players' privacy in quite an underhanded manner.
Poisonous wrote:So, forget the 'lesbian' aspect and replace it with elves.
This is pretty much echoing a point I already made. Re-read my first post on that note. But from this I gather you agree that the original post and the title of the post completely misses the issue and was poorly constructed?
Poisonous wrote:But I think we veer into the wrong territory when we begin to ask whether the DMs should get to do their jobs.
I'm not sure where you got that implication from, as I certainly didn't make it. I haven't seen anyone else imply it either. Correct me if I'm wrong, though I'd like to see a quote where that was the case if so. I questioned very much the thought process behind the original post and that it was poorly constructed, poorly thought out and honestly barely even addresses what actually seems to be the problem.

I cannot speak for others and I would dislike doing so, but I personally can very much see how people would get frustrated with the apparent carelessness of how the matter was approached and what topics were (seemingly) breached erroneously.

Perhaps the reaction was disproportionate, but I don't think a bad reaction is unwarranted, and I'm not prepared to blame human beings for an overly emotional response. It happens.

My simple hope is that the players who feel slighted return, and that everyone in future considers what they are saying more seriously and from multiple angles before they post something which is really a personal complaint/concern and regards the efforts of their fellow players.
Last edited by Khaela Mensha Khaine on Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.


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