Community - Gender & Sexuality

For discussion, feedback, praises, criticism, concerns or suggestions on topics in Offline RP, Character Backgrounds or general roleplay.
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booksarefun666
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby booksarefun666 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:43 am

Then I'll just concede my lack of experience for the time being.

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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby ljuslek » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:03 am

Poisonous wrote:-
Please re-read my post. I welcome a constructive discussion on this topic. The original post in this thread didn't however, in my opinion, offer a good foundation for that. It offered me and others our motivations for playing the characters we have chosen to play on a plate, ascribed them to us publicly. It made assumptions in regards to those motivations, that they are of the lecherous and insular variety. They are a set of assumptions I vehemently disagree with. It doesn't matter how respectfully a guess is put forth, constructive discussion is not based upon inferring the standings of the people you want to have that discussion with. Nor is it based upon intentionally or unintentionally denigrating the efforts those people expend on making this server more interesting for everyone. And I have seen that effort being expended by the players mentioned but not named in spades; all two of them who actively and regularly play(ed) lesbian or bisexual female characters besides myself.

To reiterate, I do not begrudge anyone their opinion, nor do I hold a grudge for any of the sentiments expressed. I welcome them, when they are expressed with the intent of fostering a discussion that will lead somewhere. If I wanted to rob someone of their right to their opinion or if I had a thorn in my side about anything written thus far; I wouldn't be posting in this thread. I would've made the decision to stop playing here already. Being publicly called out to argue my side is what I do during the days, I don't usually do it for entertainment. But this thread poses a rare exception to that rule, because I value this place and the people who play here and maintain it.

So please, point the way toward the constructive discussion the original post called for. I'll gladly head there.

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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Poisonous » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:41 am

Look, it's not at all my intention to just argue with someone over this. But clearly we're both coming away from the original post with completely different impressions.
So please, point the way toward the constructive discussion the original post called for. I'll gladly head there.
You admit, then, that the original post called for constructive discussion. To lay blame at the feet of the original post then is unlikely to be fair. As for where the constructive discussion is, it's here in the thread--I'm hearing a variety of opinions, seeing concessions made by posters both agreeing and disagreeing with the original post. I'm not sure what else qualifies a constructive discussion, except for there to be complete purity of positive feelings (which I don't think is ever possible).
It made assumptions in regards to those motivations, that they are of the lecherous and insular variety.
If you re-read, the post doesn't do this. It speaks generally of the possibility that this occurs on all servers eventually (that male players may do X for X reason), and worries that it may someday be the case here as well. I list below everywhere that the original post named these motivations, and you can see that it requires a certain amount of extra interpretation to reach your conclusion:
Spoiler:
It is considered by some to be the inevitable direction in which online RP can do, be it with NWN or elsewhere, when a slow but certain demographic of straight male players use their chosen medium of RP as a means of sexual wish fulfillment.
Nevertheless, I deplore the idea that it could become a place employed sheerly as a play for sexual gratification through fantasy, nor do I wish to see gender or sexuality treated as a flimsy commodity.
I am reassured in standing up for my principles by the knowledge that I am not alone, nor have ever been, in disliking this seemingly inevitable trend in RP communities.
Are you taking meaning from the post itself? Or are you ascribing meaning and motivation to someone else, like you lament the original post for doing?

I myself learned through one of my conversations with another player here, as a result of this thread, that two players--whose RP I respect--had come away from one of my own DM'd interactions feeling attacked because their PCs were engaging in lesbian romance. If the players had spoken to me of their concerns at the time, they would have learned this: I regularly had innkeepers or taverngoers tease or be grumpy to PCs of any sexuality who were clearly getting it on in the tavern rooms, as 1.) Impiltur is more socially/sexually/gender conservative than other areas of Faerun, per the server's established lore, 2.) Even in the real world people don't like to have to hear that sort of thing, and it's all in good fun to tease or have the poor NPC in charge of the room give you the stink eye. Here I was thinking I was just having a bit of fun with the two players (and other players who had done similar things, as heterosexual PCs) by reacting to their RP. When privately they were both feeling hurt and attacked.

How do you think I come away from it, months later, realizing that I made someone feel targeted for their RP? Well, I'll tell you, I feel pretty shitty and bad about it! I'm typing up the PM as we speak to let them know that it was never my intention. But assumptions and communication need to go both ways. DMs are human, imperfect people, and there's plenty of room for players to interpret us beyond our words. Players and DMs alike pour their time and effort into this place, and it's too much of our time and effort spent to jump to conclusions on either side.

I, personally, was pretty cavalier and unkind with how I expressed my opinions of lesbian RP--which is an unwise choice of mine, when I was trying to at the same time express my belief that lesbian PCs were just as valid PCs as any others. I'm sorry for my flippant words, that was wrong of me, but that's my own shitty words, not the original poster's. I don't think there's anything in that original post that justifies the kind of unkindness I showed towards lesbian PCs being directed towards OS, and I think some of the replies here have bordered or crossed that line and made assumptions or accusations towards the original post(er) that weren't true or weren't well justified.
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby ljuslek » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:23 am

The examples you quote are all based in the original posters observations of what is going on here on TER, however. And while I won't rob anyone of their conclusions or opinions, those statements are presumptuous. No matter how hypothetically they were put forth. They paint the picture that the players who put emphasis on relational role-play of the lesbian variety do so for their own base gratification, that they will invariably seek to isolate themselves and exclude others and subsequently fail to interact with the imagined world around them. The one we all want to be alive and thriving, rich with stories and fates to share in. And again I will state that those assumptions made do not mesh well with reality. That they serve to insult, intentionally or not, the efforts of the players who are positioned as being at fault. But that's alright, it really is. There is no grudge on my part. I'll write that for the third time, call it good measure. Because as you say, we're all human - a discussion wouldn't serve much of a purpose if it was all smiles and agreements. That said, I apologize if my tone comes off as harsh or brusque, I don't mean for it to be.

Where has this plea for a constructive discussion led us thus far then? It is plain that many players feel that there are too many homo- or bisexual female characters on the server. Good, that's a start. An established demographic. We're not dealing with pretended hyptotheticals. What are we to do then? About this fact that upsets so many for so many reasons? Where will the line be drawn? Shall there be quotas for lesbian characters, OK. For sorcerers? Eh. For Paladins? Maybe not. As booksarefun666 wrote, if the players being called out here are engaging with the rest of the server and are not subjecting other players to scenes they do not want to witness. Wherein lies the issue? What are we to gain by bringing this up? I don't believe the intent was to ostracise anyone, or put any onus where it doesn't belong. But that seems to be part of the end result, at least to me. The only individual I have the dubious privilege to speak on behalf of. If your characters take umbrage with homosexuality and if the game-world is intended to do so; then let that show where applicable.*

And I will reiterate how problematic it is to publicly call out a small group of players (to wit, three) who are the perceived offenders here. Regardless of whether or not they were named. As has been made plain elsewhere, TERs is a relatively small community. One based on trust, and trust presupposes sensitivity to privacy and sentiment both.


*Some of my most memorable moments on TER have been centred around this theme. My character's friend doing his best to conceal a potentially harmful titbit of information from public knowledge, my character being confronted by a DM NPC; good stuff all around.

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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Poisonous » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:40 am

ljuslek wrote:They paint the picture that the players who put emphasis on relational role-play of the lesbian variety do so for their own base gratification, that they will invariably seek to isolate themselves and exclude others and subsequently fail to interact with the imagined world around them.


They don't, though. You're taking very strong statements away from statements which were very light to begin with. I refer again to my quotations, which did not say any of these things you are naming.

First quote: Not referring to any players here. Talking about the matter very broadly. Not even close.
Second quote: States that they don't want it to become a certain type of place, never says anything that it's becoming a certain type of place.
Third quote: Again refers to a general trend in RP communities.

This is all talking about wanting to avoid a potential issue that is a trend in many communities, by stating the desire to avoid said trend.

I'm not a mind reader, and I'm certainly not speaking for OS--but people should be criticized on what they are actually saying. I can't find any of his words that say what you're describing.
What are we to do then? About this fact that upsets so many for so many reasons?
Well, the original post merely suggests that we consider the question before we make any more such characters. So there is your answer.
Where will the line be drawn? Shall there be quotas for lesbian characters, OK. For sorcerers? Eh. For Paladins? Maybe not. As booksarefun666 wrote, if the players being called out here are engaging with the rest of the server and are not subjecting other players to scenes they do not want to witness. Wherein lies the issue? If your characters take umbrage with homosexuality and if the world is intended to do so; then let that show.
I am left feeling like we've read two different posts, because the one I read expressed a concern at it potentially becoming an issue or getting out of hand, and asking for care to be taken. The repeated defense of "well it's private so far" doesn't really make much sense in this regard. In some cases it hasn't been, but the point is moot, because lesbian RP shouldn't have to be private. It should just be RP like any other, and not become a trend (like any other RP which has the potential to be immersion-breaking).
And I will reiterate how problematic it is to publicly call out a small group of players (to wit, three) who are the perceived offenders here. Regardless of whether or not they were named. As has been made plain elsewhere, TERs is a relatively small community. One based on trust, and trust presupposes sensitivity to privacy and sentiment both.
And I'll state that no one should assume that just because they are the only players they know of that this might apply to, that doesn't actually make it the case. I know well the players you're referring to, and there are definitely more than three. I feel that some offense is guaranteed to be taken when a person assumes that the original post couldn't possibly be talking about anyone other themselves and their friends. Keep in mind that where you might only see three players who ever engage in lesbian RP, others of us see a much larger number and possibly aren't even thinking of your own character at all when we make this complaint.
Last edited by Poisonous on Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby ljuslek » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:35 am

Poisonous wrote: people should be criticized on what they are actually saying.

There seems to be a disconnect with how we're looking at things here. Not once have I criticized an individual in this thread, nor would I care to. I have spoken about the manner in which this has been brought up; by way of presumptions based on observation and drawn towards hyperbole. I find that unfortunate but understandable. Your view is another, and that's alright. But refrain from implying that I have offered anyone critique for expressing their opinion; taking an issue with how something is broached is not the same as taking issue with the individuals broaching that something.


(Silly double post issue solved!)

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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Poisonous » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:49 am

ljuslek wrote:
Poisonous wrote: people should be criticized on what they are actually saying.
There seems to be a disconnect with how we're looking at things here. Not once have I criticized an individual in this thread, nor would I care to. I have spoken about the manner in which this has been brought up; by way of presumptions based on observation and drawn towards hyperbole. I find that unfortunate but understandable. Your view is another, and that's alright. But refrain from implying that I have offered anyone critique for expressing their opinion; taking an issue with how something is broached is not the same as taking issue with the individuals broaching that something.
I mean, here's a quick example of you criticizing individuals in this thread, which didn't take me long to find at all...
To see representatives of the DM team, whether they post as players or as DMs handle this so poorly however; it makes me feel saddened.
I'm honestly scratching my head a bit here. It's really just semantics at this point whether you technically criticized the person or their words, but that really seems like criticizing the person there to me. I'm not sure I understand the need for this--(Edit: To be clear, there's nothing wrong with criticizing each other's words, I just think it needs to be more considered--I'm certainly guilty of not being careful enough, myself)

In either case, that wasn't the point I was trying to make--if my statement needs to be rephrased as "people's words and actions should be criticized for what they actually were", that's fine. None of the things you said OS's original post stated, were actually stated in the post.

This seems to be veering well into the territory of us just arguing with each other, and I apologize for that, so I will leave my statement to you at that.
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Vogelens » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:10 am

I have given this subject some thought afgter it has been posted, not by choice but that is how it goes!

I think that the concerns OS posted may have been valid, but the way it was handled was wrong. Very wrong. I understand his annoyances, and I admittedly felt annoyed too by this, but... ultimately after giving it some thought it was not the cause of my greatest annoyances on TER. It was immersion breaking for sure, but on an ooc level. It was not as promiment IC as some other bad RP that broke immersion more for me.

I think this should have been handled in private wqith the players in question, this approach made it turn into a witchhunt, with plenty of collateral damage. I do genuinely think Obsidian Sea tried to be diplomatic and there are those who can see it as well, but after reading the original post I personally do not think it was, and was more passive agressive than anything else. This may have not been intended, but communication comes from both sides. Especially as the text/words themselves are a minor part of communication with others. The only other thing associated with communication here is OS being a DM. Even if he posted as a player, he is still a DM and part of the staff, the name carries some form of authority with it because of that, or it is at least perceived as that. With these being the only hints to go at at interpretating the message, it can be taken as an attack. I admit, I felt attacked too, even if indirectly for having been involved in RP like that in the past. Even if I may not be the cause for concern here, I felt this was the case. It left a bad feeling in my mouth, and still does.

The attack, or how it felt (At least a jab) is not on Obsidian Sea's shoulders though, I can see the diplomatic part of it and like to think I know him well enough that this is not his intention, the majority of the attack came from people who simply picked up torches and pitchforks and joined this witchhunt, generalizing it.

I have withdrawn my posts here, because I decided to distance myself from this issue. Even if I agree with the intent of the original post, the method of execution is one I cannot find myself agreeing with ultimately. This feels like the equivalent of getting rid of a family of raccoons wrecking up your garden by tossing a grenade at them. It should have been handled with the players in question (as it was just a select few anyway, really. Even with multiple players, a discussion could be had in PMs, discord or skype or whatever), rather than make them singled out, start a witchhunt and cause collateral damage. This puts emphasis on what was said before as well, that some players are treated as second-class citizens. A DM openly having these views (Even if posted as a player) may imply favourtism in the feature, and a bias against these players/characters. This may not be the case nor am I accusing any of the DMs who responded in this topic of this, but favourtism IS as common as girl-on-girl relationships on nwn servers, perhaps moreso. With something like this, people might see it where it is not even present, and this leads to a sour atmosphere too ultimately.
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby ljuslek » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:43 pm

We were asked to offer our thoughts on the matter, I have offered mine and others have given theirs. I have made every effort to make my words plain and honest. But here they are again, in a quick little list:

- The original post does not serve as a starting point for a truly constructive discussion. By intent or no, it serves the opposite cause.

- Calling a subset of players out like this serves no good, if it did, wouldn’t the thoughts of more belonging to this supposedly critical mass of players with flippantly bi- or homosexual female characters in their PC vaults be prevalent in this thread? It is a silent set of players this one. I wonder why?

- I begrudge no one their opinion or their conclusions. I expect to have my own respected and not argued against in a circle. I expect no apologies and perceive no slight that lasts beyond a shrug of my shoulders. Communication isn't easy, that's a given. It is even more difficult over the internet.

Again, these are my thoughts. We were asked to share them.

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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Obsidian Sea » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:11 pm

I have never frequented a corner of the Internet so much as I did this chat yesterday. I'm going to try and isolate some of my feelings and responses in this post to try and articulate my points of view both now and when I started the thread.

Why would this offend?

Though it is only an implication, and I won't claim it to be your intention to say otherwise when you posed this question, Artifice, something I think people the world over need to be reminded of sometimes is this: being offended is not a choice. So I will foreground this section by saying that just so that it is out there.

Why could someone be offended, however? Any strong supporter or member of the LGBT community, or any female or feminist, might take offense if they believed that a core part of their identity/beliefs was being undermined as a sexual commodity by men. Furthermore, some members of the community voice the concern that this kind of behaviour can lead to an insular neglect of a larger portion of the community, as I did in the OP based on what I have known to be true elsewhere in the past, which might give them a knee jerk apprehension towards the idea of lesbian/bi-sexual RP as a potentially damaging movement in the community.

Now, one might also be offended by bad Elves, and bad Paladins. But we, in our lives, are not Elves, and we are not Paladins. We might be women, we might be members of the LGBT community, and therefore such portrayals might hit closer to home, and I think such voices have the right to be heard in the matter.

Sexuality in Forgotten Realms


A controversial topic, indeed. The writers allege Faerûn to be a free love space, with nuanced exceptions being referred to, such as in one instance, Cormyr. Yet one perspective on this from the LGBT community is that it allows the writers to ignore the issue, voicing a general support and thereafter needing to do very little about it. The number of LGBT characters in the Forgotten Realms is remarkably low, to my understanding, and I have yet to find any explicit evidence of any such character being a man - further fueling the concern among some that the female body is being commercialised, rather than sexual diversity being championed. One comment on the address of sexuality in D&D FR refers to earlier editions as having "whitewashed" the matter as an unwholesome thing to promote about the setting, and alleges that later editions show a forward-thinking angle by detailing the sexuality of NPCs in "a fairly low-key way, just nothing it as another little detail". Ed Greenwood states that "I have included several gay characters of both genders in past Realms books, but not advertised their natures because it just wasn't part of the story". In my opinion, it is not good enough. Show, don't tell.

The Easting Reach, meantime, offers a more low-magic, gritty experience of the world, and does not welcome such characters with open arms. As bocksarefun666 addresses, however, our PCs are a unique demographic within a larger, more homogenised setting, and while we may greet each other's sexual diversity openly, that may not be the case beyond the characters of Impiltur that do not appear on our player list upon log in. I think that expressions of doubt as to whether or not this is the case, as shown in this thread, gives something back to the DM team that we can discuss concerning how we wish our setting to treat LGBT stories, and since this thread's creation, I have begun brainstorming with the team about how we can represent sexuality in a way that helps to tell those stories. So thank you for bringing the ambiguity in this aspect of the conversation to light.

So, to wonder as some appear to, if I am calling for a mass exodus is incorrect. That my post is taken to diminish characters and their contributions and detail altogether is a misjudgement based in offense taken: and readers are entitled to take offense, as I have, and try to channel that into something constructive, as I have (tried to do). I do not mean to demean the potential of any character to be a well rounded character. Some of the characters that no doubt feel put 'on blast' by my OP are not, at all, caricatures and I thank Poisonous for defending the use of hypothetical and future tense referencing that I attempted to use throughout the OP. These characters have, and can have, wonderful aspirations, abilities and ideas, all of which they contribute to the server, but then after hours they are gay/bi-sexual. An LGBT story isn't being explored there. That their sexual difference could be tied in and made a part of their identity and their story, rather than a part of their sex life and a means of discerning potential romantic partners among other PCs, would be a welcome nuance in a world that vastly underrepresents these stories. To some players and their characters, such integration of sexuality into their character storyline already exists, for which I am very grateful. Why play a Half-Orc if you do not wish to overcome prejudice? Why play a Paladin if you to not wish to be obliged? Why play an LGBT character if not to explore their story? These are questions that I think we all should ask ourselves, as members of a hardcore RP setting.

The Chosen Medium of Discussion & The Witch Hunt

As said above, I have watched this thread more intently than I care to admit over the last 24 hours. At any point, I could have replied (it's clear to see I have plenty to say...!) but I chose not to. I think the benefit of the forum is that we can all step away easily; observe from a distance, and reply when we are ready to engage constructively. Over the course of the last 24 hours I can admit to having been offended, hurt, and at times alienated in a way that in the moment felt irreconcilable. I didn't reply until now, when I feel I can be more lucid and offer something constructive.

So, why did I not approach the players directly? For one reason, as mentioned above, a great many of them are hypothetical. As a principle, I thought that this was a discussion for the community. There are more voices that have the right to be heard in this than mine, alone, offended, and the players who have stirred my concerns. Voices that stand on both sides of the issue, I must stress, 'lest the witch hunt accusation rise again. The matter, for me, is about our community and what it represents, and who that might affect. The majority of speakers on both sides of this issue and in the middle ground might not be those perceived to be 'directly involved', and yet their voices deserve to be considered just as important and potentially constructive to finding a common understanding.

And in addition, I did not for the reason mentioned above concerning my silence over the last 24 hours. I have been offended; others have been offended. The same is nothing I expected would have been avoided by approaching them directly in a rapid-fire discussive setting. I have been a part of such a conversation before, it escalated, and I regretted it. To put myself in the same potential position again was not going to do anybody any good. This is not the first time a dispute between members of the community has inhabited a public space, it might not be the last. I think we should be able to have this conversation: sensitive as it is, it is unsurprising it would become emotional for some participants. Regardless, I don't think mutually assured destruction or a pogrom is what anybody wants. If it is what any participant in the discussion wants, I do not stand with them, and they do not speak for the OP.

Having tried to justify the reasons for coming forward as I did, I'll address the second part of this: the witch hunt. I did not start one. I have not called for one. If I wanted to name names, perhaps I could have done so: as has been made clear by other posters, lesbian/bi-sexual characters are already represented on the server. If somebody thinks I am trying to dredge up bad blood with a particular player, then you have misjudged my intentions with making this post, and you have misjudged my character. If my OP is interpreted as a condemnation, then either my phrasing or your perspective of me is in error. It could be either - it's hard to dispute the subjectivity of language, or a text-based medium of expression.

DM Complicity, and Me as a DM

I did not ask permission from the DM team to make this post. I didn't check my phrasing or my stance on the matter with them. Do I know some members of the DM team to feel the same way? Yes. Do I know some members of the playerbase to feel the same way? Yes. Do I know some members of the DM team and the playerbase to feel differently? Yes. If maths and chemistry can be applied, I think all those factors just about neutralise each other. Let them all feel at liberty to voice their concerns here, or choose not to. That is their right.

Yet note in the OP that I do not mention the DM team, nor call for their support. I didn't (wittingly) speak for the team. I know "I" to refer exclusively to the self as a personal pronoun. That I am a member of the team is less than a secret. I think it is a shame that that devalues my right to speak as an individual, but more on that later if tl;dr has yet to set in for you.

Knowing that I didn't clear my post (or this one, for that matter) with the team, I hope that the call put out there by Silver Snow to have the DM team close this topic would be rescinded. If any 'ordinary' player had made the post, such a request would not be being made, would it? And if it were, why? Unless indeed you think the principles expressed in the OP ought to be kept private or censored, the only reason to close this post would be due to the belief that the community is too "immature" to navigate this topic in a way that is constructive. Am I immature for thinking otherwise? No. Optimistic - perhaps even naive - I could accept given the turn that things at one point had taken in this discussion, but I will obstinately push ahead in that same vein and hope that things can strive for a constructive, collaborative conversation.

Frankly, I think associations of opinion made with reference to the DM team at large, be they in support or opposition to the OP, are unwarranted and invalid. As yet, only 1 other DM has made their opinion on the topic known. I can only feel disappointed that the expression of my own principles must come at the cost of the DM teams reputation: as I ask to be able to, I would ask that you let the rest of the DMs speak for themselves.

And onto discussing my record as a DM, which is so at the front of critiques of my OP, or my being the OP: I will never ask anybody else to defend my DM record, but please do extricate me from any show of arrogance for defending it myself, as I feel I must under the present circumstances. I have never sabotaged a player's storylines or aspirations. I have never turned away a player. I have tried to host storylines as much as my dwindling timeframe for play allows to the widest number of players as I could manage, including some of those I know think that my OP puts them 'on blast'. I resent to my core the idea that by speaking up on a matter of principle, my hours of commitment to supporting and helping the community to thrive could so easily be eradicated by those who think I have no right to expect my opinion to be considered autonomously. So be it: I can't think that to be anything but the limitation of the scope of your own vision. My contributions as a DM should speak for themselves as being consistently supportive of a great number of players. For those that I have not succeeded as greatly in supporting, I have tried to voice my regret already.

But for the tarnishing of my own reputation as a DM, it seems there can be no recourse: or at least, now, no consolation on my part. It hurts me to see it, but that damage is done. I don't ask this thread to build those bridges anymore than I wanted to see them damaged within it. I want an awareness to be raised to how LGBT issues and women are represented, and I want the community to continue to have a part in shaping that landscape. And I will not apologise, though I will undoubtedly come to regret the alienation of players who I never wished to alienate as the collateral damage in the search for common ground, if in the worst case scenario that is what happens.

If you feel strongly on the matter, please be a part of the discussion. You are as entitled to speak as anybody else ought to be.
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