Community - Gender & Sexuality

For discussion, feedback, praises, criticism, concerns or suggestions on topics in Offline RP, Character Backgrounds or general roleplay.
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Feronius
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Feronius » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:16 pm

This is a way too large thread with far too extensive posts for such a simple request.
Use discretion when portraying (sexual) relationships and acknowledge the setting.

Personally, I am not a new player and I have yet to observe these problems. I did not know half these characters were lesbian.
It does explain why my character's charisma score has not lead him to more female attention. That or his absence of manners.
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Bentusi16
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Bentusi16 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:34 pm

I'm glad to see a discussion happening. I've been around a bit and I've seen both sides of this sort of thing. It can become very grating just as much as anything else.

When it comes to sexuality, there's I don't know the technical term, integral sexuality and non integral? When looking at the characters story, is their sexuality important, and if so, why? I won't spoil, but my characters sexuality is tied into his deeper psychology. It's a harmonious, in a way.

On the other hand, I've seen characters whose only beats are "kicks monster butt for XP and loot and is also a lesbian". And boy can that be grating.

Throwing out another thing, what about a PC who isn't really a fan of homosexuality? Would they be welcomed in that environment as part of the rainbow of diverse characters? I've had characters end up blacklisted because their beliefs were firm (not on the issue of homosexuality) and essentially get locked out of rp and adventuring. Sometimes because they wouldn't travel with someone who acted like a selfish jerk.

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booksarefun666
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby booksarefun666 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:57 pm

"Why could someone be offended, however? Any strong supporter or member of the LGBT community, or any female or feminist, might take offense if they believed that a core part of their identity/beliefs was being undermined as a sexual commodity by men. Furthermore, some members of the community voice the concern that this kind of behaviour can lead to an insular neglect of a larger portion of the community, as I did in the OP based on what I have known to be true elsewhere in the past, which might give them a knee jerk apprehension towards the idea of lesbian/bi-sexual RP as a potentially damaging movement in the community.

Now, one might also be offended by bad Elves, and bad Paladins. But we, in our lives, are not Elves, and we are not Paladins. We might be women, we might be members of the LGBT community, and therefore such portrayals might hit closer to home, and I think such voices have the right to be heard in the matter. ""

I'm bisexual, live in the deep south, and have gave my dues to the Human Rights campaign before and I do not personally get offended (by choice) over even the most caricature depictions of homosexual people. I can assure, without a smidgen of doubt, that the opposite is true about offense and those that can't do not have a handle on their emotions.

While I cannot speak for LGBT community even despite this "cred" because people are different, maybe someone from there on this server should also step forward and speak about their own personal experience on how lesbians ruined their experience if it's such a huge factor to your judgement

.
"I want an awareness to be raised to how LGBT issues and women are represented, and I want the community to continue to have a part in shaping that landscape. And I will not apologise, though I will undoubtedly come to regret the alienation of players who I never wished to alienate as the collateral damage in the search for common ground, if in the worst case scenario that is what happens"

I don't think activism should be part of our gaming and at most, we could address inexperienced roleplay (which is why you get bad depictions of these sensitive subjects) because I sincerely doubt the players are depicting these things poorly intentionally. It just doesn't make sense.

I do not think I'll further make comments because I think this won't really change anyone's minds. But I would like a thing explained and a point taken away.

- What intends to be done about this when this growing epidemic of lesbians is spiraling out of control? Is there a solution? Like most people do with Elves (namely Drow), Will there be a CSA (Character sexuality app) for anything that isn't straight?

- Sexuality is a really, really unimportant thing to get riled up about because it literally has little effect when we're all killing Goblins or doing a DM event (typically). Now if there's a growing epidemic of people staying in their player houses because people prefer to be cloistered away, I can understand addressing that but that can happen for straight people too.

- If we're making an appeal to offense due to the group of LGBT/Feminist of unknown number, perhaps it'd be better to groan inwardly at the bad dialogue done by bad roleplayers and be flattered that they're willing to try to put themselves in the shoes of a woman and play as them. A hardcore misogynist doesn't do that and progress is being made by people trying to empathize with what it's like to be a woman, albeit possibly poorly.

- I don't want you to think I have any ill-will towards you. I'm willing to forget this as long as the roleplay's good, and it has.

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ljuslek
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby ljuslek » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:06 pm

Obsidian Sea wrote: Now, one might also be offended by bad Elves, and bad Paladins. But we, in our lives, are not Elves, and we are not Paladins. We might be women, we might be members of the LGBT community, and therefore such portrayals might hit closer to home, and I think such voices have the right to be heard in the matter.
So we might, and so I might consider myself to be. Yet in the OP, intentionally or unintentionally the motivations of others and myself are presupposed, just as our identities are. The fact that you elected to speak on your concerns in future tense and in relation to a hypothetical future does little to change that. If the OP was not based on observations made of goings on here on the server, as it very much seems to have been; the situation naturally changes. I will state again, I do not take offense beyond a shrug of my shoulders. I am interested in the constructive discussion that was called for. But I also believe that the OP did not serve as a stable foundation for such a discussion. That is perhaps evidenced in how little headway has been made towards that goal, I too am complicit in that failure, of course. But I'll try harder now. And to serve that end I'll ask plainly, what concrete concerns did you seek to address? What questions do you want the community consider? Beyond of course the very reasonable and general plea that we all examine the ends our decisions on what characters we elect to play might inadvertently serve and whose rights those decisions might infringe upon.
Obsidian Sea wrote:Frankly, I think associations of opinion made with reference to the DM team at large, be they in support or opposition to the OP, are unwarranted and invalid. As yet, only 1 other DM has made their opinion on the topic known. I can only feel disappointed that the expression of my own principles must come at the cost of the DM teams reputation: as I ask to be able to, I would ask that you let the rest of the DMs speak for themselves.
Two. I don't offer that as a petty correction, but two is the correct number. And the issue with those voices being raised comes not when opinions are expressed, but when player motivations and ambitions come into question in the wake of statements like these:
Copper Dragon wrote:"I humbly hope players (re)consider what they utilise TER for."
And what is that exactly that these players use TER for? Not to serve their lecherous ends and personal gratification, that was after all a hypothetical statement. It is a humble hope that intends no offense, but it is also part of an incomplete argument, one that leaves things open for interpretation and misinterpretation both. It also serves to illustrate that the roles of a player and the roles of a DM are intertwined; a disclaimer does not detract from the fact that members of the DM team are expressing these opinions. Offering this advise based on personal observation and assumption. However much we might dislike it, the purple hue of a DMs forum alias is a sign of authority.

Obsidian Sea wrote:Some of the characters that no doubt feel put 'on blast' by my OP are not, at all, caricatures .... These characters have, and can have, wonderful aspirations, abilities and ideas, all of which they contribute to the server, but then after hours they are gay/bi-sexual. An LGBT story isn't being explored there.
(My bold)

Is it not? Sexuality as I have come to understand it is an aspect of identity that is performative. It is not always firmly entrenched or fixed, an individual who identifies as a man and enjoys the sexual or romantic companionship of others who share the same identity must not always describe themselves as homosexual. I’m sure you’re already intimately aware of this; that the lives of LGBTQ individuals are far from always ordered in binaries. And that sexuality and the way in which it finds expression can be a playful matter as well as one to take seriously. Whilst it may be a leap of faith to assume that the example you bring up here is an instance of players broaching the theme of sexuality and gender being performative, you have made several leaps of faith in your OP that seem to me just as unlikely.
Obsidian Sea wrote:And onto discussing my record as a DM, which is so at the front of critiques of my OP, or my being the OP: I will never ask anybody else to defend my DM record, but please do extricate me from any show of arrogance for defending it myself, as I feel I must under the present circumstances.
Nor should you have to defend yourself. No one should feel compelled to. I've been unfair. For that I’m sorry, I probably come off as unfair and overly confrontational in this post as well, but that isn’t my intention. Nor is it my intention to tarnish the DM team or any individual seeking to express their opinion or address their concerns in this thread. For that too I must apologize. I’m sorry. It has not been my intention to rob anyone of their right to an opinion. I know I appreciate your efforts, and those of the administrative and DM team at large. Large and small, rare or frequent. You all as a collective are, as I am sure you are aware, a large part of what makes this place tick. I value your opinions in this as I have valued every input you and other DMs have afforded my character and I. Just as I value and respect the sentiments put forth by everyone so far in this thread. But the intention was for this to lead somewhere, yes? The OP offered precious few ways forward. No solution to how we might curb the gratuitous female homosexuality you perceive on the server.
Obsidian Sea wrote:I want an awareness to be raised to how LGBT issues and women are represented, and I want the community to continue to have a part in shaping that landscape.
And how do you envision we work towards that end together, how can others and I help you and the community at large raise that awareness? Which of these multifaceted issues do you wish to see addressed more specifically? I am ready to partake in any discussion that serves this end. Give me the framework, pose the questions – I will readily (and hopefully more humbly than I have in this post) offer my participation.
Last edited by ljuslek on Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Poisonous
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Poisonous » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:15 pm

booksarefun666 wrote:"Why could someone be offended, however? Any strong supporter or member of the LGBT community, or any female or feminist, might take offense if they believed that a core part of their identity/beliefs was being undermined as a sexual commodity by men. Furthermore, some members of the community voice the concern that this kind of behaviour can lead to an insular neglect of a larger portion of the community, as I did in the OP based on what I have known to be true elsewhere in the past, which might give them a knee jerk apprehension towards the idea of lesbian/bi-sexual RP as a potentially damaging movement in the community.

Now, one might also be offended by bad Elves, and bad Paladins. But we, in our lives, are not Elves, and we are not Paladins. We might be women, we might be members of the LGBT community, and therefore such portrayals might hit closer to home, and I think such voices have the right to be heard in the matter. ""

I'm bisexual, live in the deep south, and have gave my dues to the Human Rights campaign before and I do not personally get offended (by choice) over even the most caricature depictions of homosexual people. I can assure, without a smidgen of doubt, that the opposite is true about offense and those that can't do not have a handle on their emotions.

While I cannot speak for LGBT community even despite this "cred" because people are different, maybe someone from there on this server should also step forward and speak about their own personal experience on how lesbians ruined their experience if it's such a huge factor to your judgement

.
"I want an awareness to be raised to how LGBT issues and women are represented, and I want the community to continue to have a part in shaping that landscape. And I will not apologise, though I will undoubtedly come to regret the alienation of players who I never wished to alienate as the collateral damage in the search for common ground, if in the worst case scenario that is what happens"

I don't think activism should be part of our gaming and at most, we could address inexperienced roleplay (which is why you get bad depictions of these sensitive subjects) because I sincerely doubt the players are depicting these things poorly intentionally. It just doesn't make sense.

I do not think I'll further make comments because I think this won't really change anyone's minds. But I would like a thing explained and a point taken away.

- What intends to be done about this when this growing epidemic of lesbians is spiraling out of control? Is there a solution? Like most people do with Elves (namely Drow), Will there be a CSA (Character sexuality app) for anything that isn't straight?

- Sexuality is a really, really unimportant thing to get riled up about because it literally has little effect when we're all killing Goblins or doing a DM event (typically). Now if there's a growing epidemic of people staying in their player houses because people prefer to be cloistered away, I can understand addressing that but that can happen for straight people too.

- If we're making an appeal to offense due to the group of LGBT/Feminist of unknown number, perhaps it'd be better to groan inwardly at the bad dialogue done by bad roleplayers and be flattered that they're willing to try to put themselves in the shoes of a woman and play as them. A hardcore misogynist doesn't do that and progress is being made by people trying to empathize with what it's like to be a woman, albeit possibly poorly.

- I don't want you to think I have any ill-will towards you. I'm willing to forget this as long as the roleplay's good, and it has.
I'll avoid discussing specifics because at this point my words are just being used as fuel to attack the original poster with (by others), but I want to say that I feel that you've made some very good points here.
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Kilaana
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Kilaana » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:36 pm

This is my personal view on the matter, both as the head admin/DM, as a fellow player, and human being.

1. That this subject was raised in a public space for a mature and open discussion, hopefully speaks positively of the staff's willingness to broach such topics in an effort to communicate openly with the community, as opposed to some of the existing opinions that the staff do not care or turn a blind eye against their players.

2. I do not like to bring attention to this fact given my role in maintaining the server at large: but I am a female. I am not offended by those who wish to play homosexual characters or the acts they wish to engage in, nor am I a homophobe. My main concern is how the portrayal of predominantly female characters who also happen to be lesbians risk not contributing constructively to the setting - as a few above here have pointed out: why play a gay or a lesbian character if it does not somehow serve as part of his/her story? This IS an RP server, so emphasis should be given due to character and story as they are integral to the setting.

Now, as being female, it is indeed grating (as Bentusi puts it) to see the majority of female PCs being portrayed as homosexuals. On a personal level, it feels as though my own gender's integrity is being misrepresented by the few who play them - although I know it is not on purpose, but simply a matter of misguidance and perhaps poorly conceived notions of female tendencies and preferences. Please note that I am not accusing anyone here of poor representation. To be fair, I can only hope that whoever wishes to portray a character of my gender, attempts to do it in a more sincere manner, and one that is more considerate of real-life females. For some, this is like asking for the sky - so it leaves me with saying: "Play what you want, play what you will, but be considerate of those around you and be conscious of the setting and the consequences you must be prepared to carry for your in-character choices."

3. This is a sensitive topic for some, and a few have come away feeling more than slighted. This is unavoidable, but when emotions have settled and clarity has returned, I hope that those who felt affected will remember that nobody here is out to persecute anyone for their choice in roleplaying their characters. If the staff had felt such inclinations, we would have taken advantage of the Ban button quite easily - but we have not. It's not a matter that requires such extremes, or for anyone to depart with ill feelings, or to feel that they are being singled out. It's a matter of trying to maintain the integrity and vision of TER as a true RP haven, that does not fall to the lesser denomination of simply being a pretty excuse for a social setting.

These are my thoughts so far on the matter. I apologise in advance for any abrupt wording, and hope you will view my words in a positive way rather than that of one who wishes only to criticize. Thank you.
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Toros
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Toros » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:24 pm

Having read over everything presented, I think that many positions were expressed and recieved more harshly than perhaps was intended and definitely more than necessary.

This is a roleplaying server, and as such we always want to encourage high quality roleplay, and from the decades of collective experience we can recognize some characters that have a tendency to be roleplayed poorly.

Some servers allow things like "Half drow half demon vampire lesbian paladin who is secretly a red dragon royal in disguise" but for us the characters that are generally watched closer are:

Paladin: expected them to be boring, stupid, holier-than-thou, and shut down fun RP. It stings a little to hear this for me, as I work hard not to do that with my paladin. So I can understand where people are getting upset.

Elves: expected to be snowflakes spouting pseudo-deep wisdom accumulated over 500 years of life

Lesbians: expected to be sex crazed exibitionists played with only one hand on the keyboard

These are all uncharitable and often unfair, but many of us have experienced one or more personally across various RP settings and easily grow suspicious.

What I'm taking away is that there are a higher than expected number of lesbian characters, and it does raise questions as to the motivations for making them for me simply because I have had bad roleplay experiences in the past.

However, I will strive to reserve judgement and hope that my faith in everyone roleplaying dynamic characters to their best of their ability is rewarded.
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Copper Dragon » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:14 pm

I stand by the importance of addressing this publicly. However, I have done wrong in not contacting the affected players in private alongside this.

I am sorry for that.

Catching up on this discussion this evening, it is clear that all have put time, effort and thought into their responses. For how sensitive and hard this topic might be, with how I made a mistake in my approach and with how it has clearly affected players, this forum thread has nevertheless been handled with maturity - with such integrity. It is humbling.

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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Kerstman » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:56 pm

I cannot read several of the edited posts. Perhaps for the best, perhaps not. I do not know.

In my opinion anything should be open to debate and there is no need for any taboo whatsoever. As long as an opinion is presented in a mature and non-rude way without any direct or indirect fingerpointing, then anything is open to discussion for me. Even the most touchy and messy subjects of this beautiful and messed up world. That includes our imaginary or fictional worlds as created here on TER. Also the most healthy attitude for a reader is to try their best to assume the writer was not being offensive. Written text lacks body language, tone and some other ingredients that make it easier to interpret it in a wrong way. I've done it plenty of times and regretted it just as often. We human beings are stupid animals who invented stuff like symbols to convey messages, but by nature we were made to deliver messages verbally. Too often in the modern world this is forgotten. Add a language barrier to the mix and you have a potentially dangerous cocktail of misinterpretation. Many of our players speak English as a second or third language and they are doing great at it, but never they can express themselves as well as they can in their primary language. The same applies to the people receiving the message when it comes to interpretation.

Now, on the topic itself. I think the initial post was direct but only meant to get people to think about this matter. I did not find anything offensive in it. In fact, it is an interesting discussion that I could partake in for hours in a nice pub with a couple of beers.

My opinion on this matter is somewhere in the middle. We all have our 'framework of reference' when discussing a topic like homosexuality and this is something very personal. It may be shaped by gender, generation, country of residence, worldview, religion, personal / family history and a lot more. The list may well be endless. I'm not sure if you are interested but here's mine: I am a Western European Atheist guy. 30 years of age. I'm heterosexual and I have friends and colleagues who are gay. Both men and women. I think it is understandable that some of our players can feel offended when there is a relatively high percentage of lesbianism in this world of TER. As OS pointed out, being offended is not a choice and therefore not an argument. But this can also imply that people can be offended very easily, perhaps too easily. It is the right of the 'offending' party to simply not care for others being offended. I am not saying that any of the people here on TER are being offended too easily when it concerns this topic, but I like to point out the other side in this. Either way, the best thing is to discuss it rather than give eachother foul looks. That is why I encourage this dicussion. If handled in a mature way by all parties it may well result in a win-win for all.

I have not felt offended by lesbianism on TER. In fact, one of my characters indulged in such activities as well (yep, add her to the count if you did not already). Did I get a kick out of it? Not really. Was it IC? Well yes. Will other female characters of me do the same? It's very unlikely since I do not always play loose cannon characters and I believe that TER is more traditional than the Western real world. Do I feel troubled by playing her this way? Slightly. There's a bit of a dilemma. I am aware of the stigma of lesbianism in FR, but at the same time I encourage 100% IC roleplay. My 'solution' is that I do not put my PC's their sexual activities out in the open. There is never any arguing against 100% IC in my opinion. Whether a gnome believes he's a red dragon, a paladin who thinks he is better than his patron Deity or a lesbian PC. For me the one rule of rp is that IC actions meet IC consequences. When someone is an asshole IG I am looking forward to him/her being treated as such. If the team supports a violently homophobic setting I am all for burning lesbians at the stake In Game.

In summary: I agree that six is too much, but at the same time I believe that each of these six may well be a very amazing character. If the characters are built well there is no arguing against their sexuality. I understand that some players will still feel offended regardless of the quality of roleplay. There is also no arguing against this, but the players playing their character well have the liberty to continue their play. If you believe your character is amazing this way then do not let others stop you. But at the same time this post is a reminder to the playerbase at large that apparently lesbianism is (close to) getting out of hand. Considerate players may think how they can adjust their playstyle to make TER an enjoyable place for themselves and others alike. Ask yourself how you can make this happen.

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P.P.S: Elves still are always gay, right?

P.P.P.S.: When you can discuss about anything, you can also joke about anything.
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Obsidian Sea
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Obsidian Sea » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:10 pm

To Bentusi16: I welcome the possibility that other characters might hold homophobic preconceptions about PCs or NPCs. We experience racism and religious prejudice in the world, so really, why not invite the possibility that this can be the beginning for an interesting dialogue between PCs too? Like with racism, sexism, and religious prejudice, I would rise with objection to seeing it happen between players. Between PCs, I think it is another opportunity to engage each other in developmental experiences.

As is the case in our current society, I don't think the people of Faerûn can firmly point to why people deviate in their sexuality, and that can lead to othering and doubts of many kinds. Are such people cursed by the Gods? By a particular God? Are they abberant? Is some part of them inherently less (or more) evolved than the heteronormative person? Are they more susceptible to being Chaotic? Evil? Lawful? Good? There's lots of ways in which historical views of sexuality can be applied to our fantasy world, which all come back to a core question asked all the world over: why are people/why am I LGBT?

booksarefun666: if by perceiving me to be emotionally unstable you feel within your right to devalue my contributions, that is entirely your choice. Personally, I think it's a shame: I respect your contributions, as I hope there is no illusion that I don't respect and encourage everybody's. I don't get my kicks out of being offended, nor causing a schism within the community, and if I am the lone piece of evidence to the contrary in the debate over whether people choose to be offended or not, I remain in the way of you being able to launch your summation of the matter "without a smidgen of doubt".

What solutions can I offer? Through the course of the discussion, I have come up with some, and simply by having the discussion, I think we have kickstarted or outright achieved some of those solutions.
  • We have had this discussion. It might have been and might continue to be hard at times for some of us to have it, but I don't think that makes it wrong, nor is it silly. People have been given the opportunity to express their concerns and opinions in an open forum, and we all move forward with some more knowledge about how the matter is perceived by all those who have spoken: I am grateful for that. Hopefully, that can make us all more sensitive in dealing with the issue and with one another, regardless of where we stood before, or after, we had the conversation.
  • The DM team can work to give the issue more presence in the setting by providing information on how homosexuality and gender sits within the context we play in. I will work hard within the team to try and be a part of that development if it helps gives players an idea of where such characters stand within the setting, and the challenges and psychology they may face or be confronting/confronted by.
  • To prevent a thread of deprecation or cynicism being lodged towards players who chose to explore LGBT stories with their characters, I think perhaps the team should considered banning ERP, so that by sheer impossibility of presumption, the players who foster those stories can never be considered to be using their characters as a vehicle for titillation.
Through the combination of these things, I think everybody stands to have their values safeguarded and endorsed, by one another and by the team. Toros speaks quite truthfully about the thread of cynicism that underpins a lot of the 'opposition' to such characters, and I have faith, like him, that the knee-jerk reaction that some of us have to such characters will continue to be false, as it has been false about members of our playerbase who are confronting these issues with their characters before.

Though this conversation has been deemed melodramatic or unnecessary by some, I still think that it comes to a positive conclusion, even if that conclusion is that we all understand and welcome each other a little better than we did before, and that we are reminded to have faith in one another and in our community to be the source of vibrant characters and stories, and to serve one another by sharing the richness of those stories, and welcoming them.
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