Community - Gender & Sexuality

For discussion, feedback, praises, criticism, concerns or suggestions on topics in Offline RP, Character Backgrounds or general roleplay.
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Poisonous
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Poisonous » Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:14 am

Spoiler:
Khaela Mensha Khaine wrote:That wasn't the thought at all, it's one of many points that was raised. A side-note, one that the focal point of my post did not need to stand firmly on its own merit, but which I felt worth mentioning because it seemed completely out of place in this discussion.
It was a point raised, so I responded to it. I admit I'm confused where the problem lies with that.
I should further emphasise that bringing the LGBT community into the discussion where no-one from the LGBT community has been offended seems immature at best. If someone from the LGBT community had spoken out to OS then I would say that's very pertinent information to bring forward which would have actually added some credence to the nature of this post. There's no faux pas in doing that, as long as you weren't naming the individual who spoke up directly. As it stands, I have a strong suspicion this was not the case, so the comment I made is perfectly fine where it is.
Well...your suspicion is in fact wrong in this case, and the judgement about being immature unwarranted imo. This is why I bring this up.
'm quite aware that the more information the better as a DM, and I agree that coding seems a really awesome tool, but that entire explanation has already had an answer provided. Namely, if the case was DMs getting constantly interrupted by 'social' RP or, to put it bluntly, ERP then honestly it was a simple case of discussing this amongst other DMs and issuing a rule that erotic roleplay should be kept to Tells, where it is out of even the DMs eyes.
Well, once again, I must stress that you're missing where the complaint lies. It isn't that erotic RP can't or shouldn't happen, or that it interrupts DMs. Again, I'm 100% okay with the RP happening, publicly or not-publicly. I just don't want it to draw away from the server's feel. I'm fairly certain I'm the only person here to have grumped about seeing the RP while on as a DM, but my own frustration when I DM'd was not that it happened but that it was more becoming prevalent than other RP.
And if Tells are not out of the DMs eyes then I think that's definitely information that should be made public, as that's invading players' privacy in quite an underhanded manner.
I'm happy to correct the record here and say that tells are definitely not available to DMs.
This is pretty much echoing a point I already made. Re-read my first post on that note. But from this I gather you agree that the original post and the title of the post completely misses the issue and was poorly constructed?
No, I was giving you an example of a similar potential problem to try and illustrate the point. I haven't given the title of the thread much consideration as it seems like a very small thing to complain about or, alternatively, praise.
I'm not sure where you got that implication from, as I certainly didn't make it. I haven't seen anyone else imply it either. Correct me if I'm wrong, though I'd like to see a quote where that was the case if so. I questioned very much the thought process behind the original post and that it was poorly constructed, poorly thought out and honestly barely even addresses what actually seems to be the problem.
Prior to making that statement I constructed an argument that:

1. DMs can do their jobs better with all the information.
2. DMs' jobs include helping guide the direction of the server, maintain the intended feel of the place, etc.
3. If a DM notices what they perceive as a potential issue, it's their job to speak up about it and try to correct it.

So when the answer is "DMs can choose not to see that information" is the reply, my argument is: that asks DMs to ignore two parts of their job. However, I'll stress once again that I'm 99% sure I'm the only one who complained about that. I feel absolutely awful that my own brash complaint about it has led to criticism of the feature, and I hope that folks will understand that one grumpy, miserly ex-DM does not a staff make.
Perhaps the reaction was disproportionate, but I don't think a bad reaction is unwarranted, and I'm not prepared to blame human beings for an overly emotional response. It happens.
Fair enough.
I would hope that no-one ostracizes me for speaking my mind, but at the same time the welfare of this server and the players' feelings are fairly important to me as I like this server very much and I do not like to see so many people tap out because of something like this. If I'm ostracized in any way, fair enough. I feel quite strongly on this matter.
Long-time players here know that the server has a long history of passionate arguments, discussions, and debates. We'll all debate things until we're blue in the face, disagree profoundly, and come back together at the end of the day to play and have fun. I have antagonized staff quite a bit myself with my own brash opinions, been louder and more outspoken (and only varying degrees of right or justified) than most here, etc. Never have I been ostracized for my opinions, or seen anyone here ostracized for speaking their opinions.
Last edited by Poisonous on Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Xanthas
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Xanthas » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:39 am

I think that it is perhaps worth concisely stating that the point of the original post and this topic, at least from what I can tell, seems to be that some have felt concern about a growing number of lesbian characters on TER as it is something they have seen lead to issues in the past with other servers. The particulars of it all are obviously not without importance and I don't mean to tell anyone what they should or should not discuss. Instead I hope that stating it simply this way will help to show why, I think, it was presented as a topic to the community instead of privately and that it isn't intended to offend or insult anyone but instead to open discussion within the community as a whole about something that has caused concern among a portion of it instead of letting that go unacknowledged.

It is more than unfortunate that people have felt attacked by the topic and its handling, though I truly believe no one here has meant to offend or insult anyone else, and I sincerely hope that they will return to the server soon though I don't begrudge anyone a wish to distance themselves temporarily, it is of course their choice and this is a sensitive topic. In the end I suppose my point is that I hope any who have felt offended or insulted by this do return to the server and aren't under the impression that this was meant to be a witch hunt as opposed to an open discussion about something that some of the community worried might become an issue if left unspoken.
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Khaela Mensha Khaine
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Khaela Mensha Khaine » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:03 am

Poisonous wrote:It was a point raised, so I responded to it. I admit I'm confused where the problem lies with that.
There is no problem with it, but it does seem like you were focusing a little too much on that part of the post. Also giving caution to the idea that there's any weight to the idea that the discussion is just the result of players getting offended on the behalf of an imaginary LGBT community is not something I did, so I'm not sure where that idea came from. I expressed my confusion as to where that came into the discussion, which follows into this:
Poisonous wrote:Well...your suspicion is in fact wrong in this case, and the judgement about being immature unwarranted imo. This is why I bring this up.
Noted, but you seem to be focusing on something I said while skipping another point that I made; if this was the case, that a member of the LGBT community had expressed a problem with the way homosexuality or some other aspect of the community was being portrayed, I do not see why it was not raised by OS as a concern as that is a very important point for people to consider.

Though I will add to this that I still believe it is overly sensitive to raise such a concern, as much as it would be for me to express my concern at how a heterosexual man is played by a homosexual woman, or something along those lines. As I said, this is roleplay. People are trying to be creative and expressive. Perhaps their motive for doing so is in the wrong, but again, generalizing that point to the community as a whole is, I feel, more of a misstep than speaking to the individuals on a professional level.

To reference a point OS made: being concerned about getting into a heated personal debate with someone over the matter because he himself was personally feeling frustrated with the situation is a valid point. However, he is not the only person who could speak to these individuals on a professional level. There are other DMs he could have asked, perhaps, to speak to these people in a more neutral and unbiased tone.

If this is not the case, though, and the entire staff feel this way, then I see no reason for this to be issued as a personal statement rather than a professional one.

The comment about it being immature was relevant only if no-one from the LGBT community had addressed the issues, and I still stand by that statement.
Poisonous wrote:Well, once again, I must stress that you're missing where the complaint lies.
No, I'm not. I think my first post is evidence of this. Unfortunately you seem to be taking what I am presenting as possibilities as my overall thoughts on the matter. I am trying to address what could be the case and giving what I feel are reasonable solutions if that is the case.
Poisonous wrote:No, I was giving you an example of a similar potential problem to try and illustrate the point. I haven't given the title of the thread much consideration as it seems like a very small thing to complain about or, alternatively, praise.
The example was really not necessary, as, like I said, it's something I already raised as a point and went over fairly thoroughly. As for the title of the thread, I would say it is a factor if it's misleading people going into the topic, but that's not a point worth going over in-depth.
Poisonous wrote:when the answer is "DMs can choose not to see that information" is the reply, my argument is: that asks DMs to ignore two parts of their job.
Again, I point to my suggestion for the DMs to rule that people take such private RP to Tells.

I won't address the other points you made, such as about being ostracized, as it was kind of just a rhetorical hope that I was voicing. I also will make this my last post, as this seems to be turning into a bit of a silly merry-go-round of quotes without leading to anything particularly constructive.

If it's not clear that I was trying to address multiple concerns and possibilities as thoroughly as possible and provide answers for all of these things to make a point that this thread was unnecessary, then I seem to have failed in my objective, at least to some. Hopefully the players who feel troubled by the thread and Obsidian Sea at least take something constructive from what I said, as those are the people I was really trying to address with this.

My apologies for anything that comes across as rude or blunt, but again, there's many facets to this which bother me. This should not become a discussion about equality, and if a discussion were to take place about equality, this would still be a ham-fisted approach to it.

EDIT: Just as a further note, if anyone is going to quote anything I said in their posts in future, please don't do me the disservice of plucking one little quote while ignoring other things I've said. I have taken the time to try my very best to summarize my thoughts taking into account everything that everyone has said, what I do refer to is referred to as completely as possible, and I would like that consideration reciprocated. Where things have been left out, I have tried not to make assumptions and if I have made assumptions, I have presented them as possibilities of what I may or may not have misunderstood rather than fact. If I have said something, I would prefer if you ensure your response hasn't been addressed by me already.

If anyone feels they may be misunderstanding me, is offended or confused by anything I've said, or anything along those lines, I'd prefer to be spoken to directly about it rather than have my words misrepresented by others. Thank you.

Xanthas
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Xanthas » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:44 pm

After some thought on this discussion as a whole there is one important thing I would like to add in regards to the what seems to be the general sentiment that a DM shouldn't have brought this topic up. I at least, and to be abundantly clear I speak only for myself, think that its important that DM's be able to speak their mind on things with the community. The idea that a DM's opinion or concern shouldn't be stated seems like it would only serve to ostracize them from the community and cause a rift between what the players and DMs think of the setting and how it functions. Given that DMs bring about interaction between players and the world they are in I think its important that they be allowed to express their own opinions and thoughts without worry that because they are a DM it will be taken as a demand from the staff of the server rather than as a member of the community attempting to make a more cohesive vision of the world we are all inhabiting with these characters.
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Poisonous
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Poisonous » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:57 pm

Look, by commenting on a few statements you made I wasn't attacking you or trying to make you look bad. If I don't address other statements you made its because I either didn't have anything to say, or felt they were true enough.

Us disagreeing or not understanding each other is not me misrepresenting you or cherry picking you. I'm sorry it's given that impression, as it was not my intention. I agree, though, that this doesn't seem to be productive and it's better if I give room for others to speak.

After all, right now I'm burying much better posts, such as those of xanthas and toros.
Mother Kelda Adler, high priestess of The Crying God. Found in Kelda's Clinic & Sarshel City South.
Hedwithien Le'lewaluin, wanderer. Found in ???
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Kilaana
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Kilaana » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:03 pm

I would just like to point out as well that the staff are not demanding that homosexual relationships, ERP, or attempts at playing the opposite gender, be disallowed. Nor is there an intent to ban it altogether. This topic does represent an individual's desire to present a concern to gather a discussion; that this individual also happens to be a member of staff should not prevent him from doing so. I ask you to not misinterpret the OP's intentions as some sort of disciplinary action the staff is attempting. It is not.
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Talisman
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Talisman » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:42 pm

Wow. This thread..

There are issues with both sides of the aisle here, IMO. On one hand, nobody likes to feel persecuted or targeted for RPing a certain way, especially if they're doing so privately. We should all have the freedom to RP our characters in a way that satisfies us, so long as if actually fits the lore and doesn't ultimately hurt the immersion of other players. Nobody likes to be called out, especially by staff, and it is unfortunate that it at least feels like that has happened here to the players this topic addresses.

On the other hand, any actual LGBT members, women, or feminists out there may be OOC offended by what they see as a poor, caricaturized portrayal of their gender and sexuality; and let's be frank: the LGBT and women are still very much oppressed by the lion's share of the present-day world community, so it's not entirely unreasonable for them to be offended by this. If you're not one of the LGBT or a women, you may not truly know what it feels like to be oppressed and to furthermore have your own identity caricaturized online. I know none of you are doing what you do with the intention to insult anyone, but the reality of the world is that you can offend people without even trying, and the onus is on all of us to help limit the harm we do to each other. We are a community, after all. One that I think we all hope can last for a good while.

As I have told OS and others before, despite agreeing with his concerns, I have too played bi-sexual and lesbian characters; back when I played a bi-sexual Drow that used sex as a means to gain further political power and when I played a lesbian Sylvari, as they have no real concept of gender. But both of these times I did so because they made a lot of lore sense, and when I RPed these sexualities I challenged myself to play them as realistically as possible. I did not RP these sexualities simply as a means to my own OOC sexual satisfaction. I think it's perhaps when we're using this sexuality as a means of that, that it becomes a bit over caricaturized and thus accidentally insulting to anyone that may happen to belong to the LGBT community or be a woman in real life (because you're objectifying their bodies as a sexual apparatus)

So by all means play lesbians, play bi-sexual, play sheep-fuckers for all I care. Just do it while challenging yourself to portray your character's sexuality as more than a means to an OOC sexual end. I hate to bring up names, but I think Aleira has done a fantastic job of exactly this! Her sexuality actually comes out as added depth, because it's portrayed well! Heck, if we could have more characters like this in a fantasy playground maybe we can all become more familiar what it really means to be LGBT or a woman. Furthermore, I agree with some of those that feel targeted that this should have been brought up more privately with individual players. It's good that you're speaking about this if you feel hurt by the way people are RPing, but there's no need to drag the whole community into it and put those you wish to address under a blaring spotlight.

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Brindisium
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Re: Community - Gender & Sexuality

Postby Brindisium » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:04 pm

So by all means play lesbians, play bi-sexual, play sheep-fuckers for all I care.
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