Community - DM Feedback

[Obsidian Sea]

Such great thanks and praise for Copper Dragon's detailed and thoroughly considered plotline, which I'm very appreciative for having been involved in as a player in the last couple of days. May we all strive for your level of specificity and attention in our future DM endeavours.

[Highlander]

Seconded, it was a most enjoyable couple of sessions, and a welcome return to Copper's tender DM mercies - feels like a long time ago in a land far away since the last time for me, and it probably is. Thanks to all involved, and looking forward to the follow up rp.

[Silver Snow]

It strikes me that while this thread is titled and intended for DM Feedback, it has been exclusively used for DM praise. I am sure that this is unfair to the DMs that created this thread, given the mission statement for it is:

Knowing what players find enjoyable, challenging, engaging and disengaging is essential for DMs to return with better events each and every time, and the best way of us to know these things is to gain your feedback.

With that in mind, I would like to provide some feedback of my own, first on a specific level and then on a broader one. I hope that I can manage to keep it entirely constructive without losing its meaning and intent, but if frustration bleeds into my writing I apologize; it would mostly be because I have to draft this feedback in a post rather than express it in a conversation, a very dry and impersonal method of communicating instead of a more human one.

First, to the DM that intervened in some light RP and dungeoning tonight that has volunteered to be unnamed despite my requests in-game, I would like to say that the fact I could not start a discussion was the most disappointing point of all for me. While the most purely mechanical damage was undone (I presume by way of regret, or acknowledgement it was done in error, though it is very welcome in either case), I think that there is still plenty to learn from the situation. While knowing that many may agree with me, I speak for myself on this matter, and I would like to offer some criticism on how the dungeon intervention here was handled, with the notable fact that it is not the first scenario like it to occur and lead to frustration.

Given the age and limitations of the game we all play together here, a DM can contribute to dungeons in several ways:
1) Not everything the players can be expected to see and feel and respond to can be represented in game, and so a DM can be there to add to the atmosphere and mood of a dungeon, be it horror, weariness, stalwart determination, or anything else.
2) Given that balancing dungeons is extremely difficult and imprecise mechanically, a DM can be there to help custom tailor the challenge for the party. This can mean that the challenge is increased by way of more or harder enemies, or simply enemies being given something more intelligent than the AI. It can and should also mean that the challenge is sometimes decreased, something that can be manifested by less enemies or less strong ones, but also by tactful intervention of the AI to not murder characters and also to endow the players with additional reward and supplies in order to make up for an increased challenge.
3) As said above, the game is old, clunky, prone to lag and error, and so a DM can be there to make up for its errors, especially those detrimental to the characters. It could be a character accidentally lagged and pushed into a group of enemies, or made to AoO through a flock of them due to lag.

I believe that while the intention of the DM was good, to add to the challenge of the party, the intervention lacked a single emote or any other interaction with the players aside from within combat itself. I personally don't like seeing that, not when so much more can be done with a DMs time than beating up the players. This became most acute when my character was killed within a round immediately out of a transition after the dungeon seemed "over." I am sure many DM explanations can follow justifying the likelihood of those enemies being there, ready to ambush, but I would counter with the fact that we are much more limited with what we can see and react to than our characters, and that it is as viable to justify being aware of something like an ambush, as it is to create one. I would rather not deal in hypotheticals. In short, the dungeon was hard enough, the party was clearly having difficulty, and the introduction of the last encounter just couldn't have been foreseen or mitigated by the party. I say all of this as a DM myself that very much enjoys creating added challenge to players, not one that likes the easy road. I consider myself successful when everyone has won, triumphed, come out with 1hp apiece but the sort of rewards in loot, experience, and simple RP that make it worth their while. Earlier this year I sent a long outline of my suggestions to the Team on dungeon interventions after another frustrating event, one that I think I will make public to let others give their thoughts on it, as perhaps it merits a review. To end, no, neither I nor any other player I know dislikes the idea of a DM being involved in a dungeon, but I have noted that my own experiences, and those of others, are as often negative as they are positive, and so I think it's on everyone to figure out how to address that. I also understand that it is impossible for any DM to cater to every player's preferences, but I can very confidently say that this is a fairly pervasive preference that is certainly not being addressed. I hope that this has helped to at least outline what I consider to be some of the issues, and as for mitigating them, I am always very happy to help provide ideas and discuss things like this.

On a more general note, as it echoes an earlier sentiment here, my single most poignant piece of feedback is that the Team has generally had difficulty communicating with the players. I hesitate to say unwillingness, but I will say it anyway; there have been multiple events where a member of the Team declined conversations, interactions, and anything that may hint at a confrontation, no matter how constructive it may have become. I do not think that it is a healthy trend, both for the Team to understand the likes and needs of the players, and for the players to be able to have a good rapport with the team.

The Team seems to prefer communicating very impersonally, usually through forums, and often as anonymously as they can, which only adds to the problem. It is natural to want to protect oneself from confrontation, of course, and it should never be sought for the sake of it. I also understand that a PM or a post can give someone more time to consider a response and plan it out better, which can have some benefits. But, please consider this..which has ever led to better results, more communication, deeper understanding, an email, or a meeting? A text, or a phone call? A long PM with multiple points, or a live IM conversation? I have been able to come to a much closer understanding with members of the Team on a subject within 10 minutes of Tells than 10 back and forth and heated PMs, and I think that is because the latter format loses empathy and connection, and becomes just a checklist of claims and arguments. I very, very highly encourage it to be used less and less, especially in situations where the conversation just has to be a more personal one, or there's an argument. I think it will lead to less large and hurtful misunderstandings, less arguments, and less regrets.

My last note, I think there is an instinctive response from some members of the Team to retreat to some high formality when dealing with players, especially about sensitive subjects. I have noticed it often, as have others, and it feels very much like being talked down to every time it happens. I hope it is not needed, but I am afraid to say that it might be a good reminder to have: everyone here is an adult, and a person, and that simply the act of being a DM, while entitling one to some decisions others do not get to make, does not make one anyone else's superior in any notable sense. To add some anecdote I think is relevant, I have founded my own company and before I was legally allowed to rent a car, I had to manage people older and more experienced than me. I've had to hire them, fire them, discuss their flaws and mine, and it is -extremely- tempting to become detached and impersonal when given any sort of authority and hard decisions to make with it. You may call that detached loftiness "professional" but I'd like to think we have no need for that here. At the core we are all playing a game, trying to have fun, helping others have fun, and the DMs take the burden of adding to the fun, often at the expense of their own. The amount of personal anguish this game has caused people isn't necessary, and I'm just looking for ways to help mitigate it. Given that, I hope that none of my long (far, far too long) post here is tossed out simply because it is mine, and that it is at least taken to mind, if not to heart.

Above all, let's cut the bullshit out, try to communicate better, and recognize that we're all here to have fun.

EDIT: If this merits a public discussion, much as I hope it doesn't, let it be elsewhere.

[Kerstman]

I do not understand why this point is made in this manner if you wish it to not become a public discussion. Firstly I see no issues with it, since anything should be open to discussion. Secondly, if such has to be done elsewhere this initial post should have been elsewhere. Therefore I take the liberty of making a response here. The Team is free to remove this post as I agree this is not the right thread for it, but there is now not another alternative place to respond to these points raised.

Then on the several points raised by Silver Snow. I'll not argue against your experiences and if it has been this bad then I'm sorry for your experiences. Still it's your perspective and I'd be interested to hear those of others. Including the other side in this. What I feel quite uncomfortable with is that at several moments in your post you refer to 'others, many others, a lot of others.' I wish to be extremely clear that I will not appreciate anyone speaking on my behalf without my approval. It is understandable to not provide names, but the notion of 'others' carries zero weight if those players do not speak up for themselves. I at the very least wish to add that I do not share your sentiments on the DM team. Has there been room for improvement here and there? Yes, there has. Have I felt a little frustrated because of their intervention? Yes, it happened a very few times. But that's all of it for me. They generally have been supportive, understanding, polite and while communicating by text is not ideal they are not terrible at it in my opinion.

[Copper Dragon]

Thanks for the feedback, Silver Snow, and Kerstman for the reply so far.

If others are interested in discussing this in the forums, can I suggest a General Discussion thread be started for it for clear follow-up?

Preferably we will indeed leave this thread for feedback, be that praise or pointers for improvement.

Thanks for your time, guys. The team is going to discuss it as well, of course, later today.

~ Copper

[Danuvis]

Huge props to DB for an eventful, very moving evening for Moonfest!

[Poisonous]

Kudos to Copper Dragon for the almost food riot event today! I couldn't have had more fun, and you handled the conflicting PC efforts flawlessly.

[Artifice]

I really enjoyed it too - fun, interesting, and a link to things to come. Thanks Copper Dragon!

[Xanthas]

Thanks to OS for an excellent end to an enjoyable quest and thanks to Kilaana and all the DMs who helped with it for the quest as a whole, it was a great time and I enjoyed it all.

[Ostheim]

Thanks to Kilaana for all her hard work, and to OS for the finale.