Price Scaling and Matching Faith Discounts

[Toros]

So Jerek went to buy healing supplies for the first time in a long time, and noticed that the prices of every bit of healing item either has gone up significantly, or he is getting a significant surcharge despite also being an Ilmateri.

He's currently being charged 81 cp for a healing kit and nearly 50 for a bite kit, when I remember them previously being like 56 and 35 cp.

Compared to another player, the most expensive kind of potion was 132 cp vs 115 cp, about 15% more expensive. The cheapest one I distinctly remember being 16 cp, and now is 24.

I have heard that prices go up in relation to how much money you have, and while I question the benefit of this feature, I wasn't expecting it to be this dramatic of scaling. In my mind, this only encourages simply having a newer character buy the healing supplies instead, bypassing it altogether.

Healing costs aren't going to send Jerek to the poorhouse anytime soon, but it feels quite unrealistic for Teresa to charge Jerek 15%+ more for healing items.

[Loreweaver]

What it comes down to is that your character has developed a reputation for great affluence. Because everyone believes the character can afford to pay more, they are either more keen to take advantage or feel the character has a duty to shoulder a larger portion of the costs on behalf of the poor.
You are certainly most welcome to get someone else to buy your supplies. It provides an opportunity for you to save some coin, for someone else to earn a little and encourages you to put a character on your payroll as befits a person of means. Of course, if they want to work for free that's their loss.

[Vogelens]

Though that raises the question: Why would a Good alligned priestess from a Good alligned faith try and take advantage of people who are actively doing a Good thing, by taking out evil creatures? Trying to take advantage of others with great influence like that is definatly not a good alligned thing, it is greedy and does not seem Ilmateri at all. Or other faiths who do this. If it is the potionshop/alchemist, sure. Maybe with trying to take advantage but that is what Appraise is for.

Then there are characters like rogues or other more shady people, who operate in the shadows and behind the screens, who would have their accomplishments not known, at all. And they actually work towards not being known by the people. It is kind of a sign of a bad rogue-ish/stealthy character if everyone knows who they are and they have gotten fame for it And then there is the case of characters like rangers or druids who never come into town, had others get potions for them, and build up some money. Then the one time they get into town themselves, they would be recognized as wealthy and charged a lot?

And that is not even taking appraise and bluff into account. High appraise/bluff characters would not be swindled that easily, and can even make the (False) claims they are not wealthy, nor can afford much.

I understand it is a goldsink and I am fine with it, but the RP reasoning behind it makes no real sense, imo. I would be more fine with it simply being said it is just that, a goldsink to balance wealth (Though it can be argued it punishes people who do well in dungeons who do not need healing supplies), but it should be just said. A mechanical goldsink rather than try and build an RP reason around it, as it is very situational. High level, well known characters can be poor. And low level, unknown characters can be rich.

[Loreweaver]

In such cases they might 'take advantage' for the same reason certain taxes are collected, that being to subsidize other activities. While one can certainly raise the argument that the wealthy should get to decide which causes they donate towards on their own rather than being forced to contribute towards something they may not care for, requiring the strong to support the weak does not conflict with a good alignment, nor is it an expression of greed.

The system does overlook characters who dress in rags, avoid being seen spending or receiving coin, live a sober lifestyle and so on. On the other hand, if they rarely buy anything they're hardly affected. As appraise is already taken into consideration, they should have no concerns on that count. If they prefer to go shopping in disguise, we'll chalk the price increase up to the costs of their cosmetics and props.

As for rangers and druids who walk into town as gawking strangers with bulging coin pouches, I'm sure you can imagine where they'd get their reputation.

[Kerstman]

Personally I see this purely as something that balances things out and it does not discriminate, which I like. Yes it may not be 100% ICly accurate, but I think that is impossible anyway and I would not like to see specific alignments, races or classes being (dis)favored. It seems quite fair that the rich pay a bit more. Also, does this not go for all merchants and not just the people at the temple?

[Toros]

In such cases they might 'take advantage' for the same reason certain taxes are collected, that being to subsidize other activities. While one can certainly raise the argument that the wealthy should get to decide which causes they donate towards on their own rather than being forced to contribute towards something they may not care for, requiring the strong to support the weak does not conflict with a good alignment, nor is it an expression of greed.

In this particular case, the npc in question received a 5 balan donation from the Adlers a few months back, and via offline RP had a dinner at the orphanage as a thank you. The logical conclusion for Jerek to draw is that /that/ woman is attempting to swindle and cheat him. He does not appreciate thieves and would be unlikely to donate more in the future. His most likely IC action would to be to speak to her supervisor and ask why he is being charged so much more than others are, and it unlikely that anyone would come away with good feelings.

Based off of the offline RP, I do not feel that this particular course of action is what is IC intended, and I don't have any interest in the mental gymnastics required for why attempts would be made to take advantage of Jerek and him being ok with it.

The system does overlook characters who dress in rags, avoid being seen spending or receiving coin, live a sober lifestyle and so on. On the other hand, if they rarely buy anything they're hardly affected. As appraise is already taken into consideration, they should have no concerns on that count. If they prefer to go shopping in disguise, we'll chalk the price increase up to the costs of their cosmetics and props.

Can we speak clearly when discussing what is essentially a mechanical feature? Prices scale based on how much coin you have. Unless you have coded clothing type mattering, whether someone is seen receiving coin mattering, or buying and drinking alcohol mattering, then it makes no sense to discuss such, bordering on being deceptive.

I just finished testing, and the base prices are 16, 31, 91 for various potions whereas Jerek is paying 24, 45, 132. The prices have not gone up in the last year, the character is simply getting a 50% surcharge based on the amount of coin he has.

I propose we take at least one of three actions.

1) Admit the mechanic is simply an OOC feature to reduce the impact of greater wealth, unjustifiable through RP.

2) Retool the mechanic to provide exceptions where it violates immersion.

3) Scrap the mechanic altogether and replace it with more interesting goldsinks.

Jerek is at the point where he can avoid using healing items the vast majority of the time, and pay a deep discount on those found by parties. The characters that actually suffer from this are those who are saving up for a greater restoration, as the price gouging approaches 35% at a torntar in wealth.

Personally I see this purely as something that balances things out and it does not discriminate, which I like. Yes it may not be 100% ICly accurate, but I think that is impossible anyway and I would not like to see specific alignments, races or classes being (dis)favored. It seems quite fair that the rich pay a bit more. Also, does this not go for all merchants and not just the people at the temple?

50% is not "a bit more." Neither is 35%. By the very nature of what I'm discussing, it does discriminate based on total wealth. I believe it applies to all merchants, though healing tends to be the primary cost for many players as it is rare other merchants offer goods worth buying.

[Silver Snow]

I'm going to have to second what Toros is saying, any IC justification going into it is backwards from what the mechanical intent is and very flawed and not believable.
I understand the purpose of a gold sink but I've made the realization that the price scaling for items moves faster than appraise does. As an example, Lucien at level 1 had 5 appraise, it's a skill he has been putting max ranks in. He went through the levels, raised a torntar to pay for a personal restoration (so it was spent), and is most of the way into a second. His appraise is now 9..and potions cost him significantly more than they did when he started. This whole system basically invalidates the improved buying power of appraise, and there's no valid way to ICly explain that. The biggest incongruity is still with the the priestess selling potions, but it's also the place the majority of PCs do almost all of their spending. It feels like if "reputation" for wealth is the justification, why does it stand more prominent than other reputation like the success against literal goblinoid armies? It's taking all the bad without any of the good. I would rather chalk it up to a purely OOC mechanical explanation and be content to pay more.

[Kerstman]

Some considerations:

- Appraise is still very useful no matter how rich you are. It should not be forgotten that it also helps with selling items.
- Personally I am in favour of such a gold sink. Apparently the PC has no other or insufficient gold sinks such as taxes, housing, donations, (greater) restorations or anything else. Then this is not so bad. If a PC spends a lot and ends up with 'only' 4 balan then any supplies shall automatically be cheaper again.
- While this comes into play most with healing I feel that some other sources are very much ignored or downplayed too much. Trap components, identification kits, some specific clothes, armors/weapons sold by other parties at the smith and spell scrolls are all affected too and they are by no means not important. Add to that that some things may be purchased for rp reasons alone. Therefore it affects more classes than those taking the hits.
- I think this feature can really help to promote rp. I am not sure how the brew potion stuff works now, but what if brewing costs are cheaper than the costs at the temple? Interesting no?
- If this is a real concern at the moment then it seems like the cost for greater restoration is not such a issue anymore or am I wrong in that assumption? Also let me add that I know how much the costs increase. I have 3 PC's who pay quite a bit for any supplies at the moment, but they are all pretty loaded.

As for Toros' his suggestions. I would go for point 1. But I think it needs serious rephrasing since I absolutely do not agree it is totally unjustifiable through rp. 2 is too arbitrary to me. I am all for equality for all PC's. I am curious for suggestions about 3, but I think an unavoidable goldsink is a good one to have. If you make a goldsink avoidable (housing and donations are examples) then we shall have characters with 10 torntar much sooner than may be preferred by some. I am not terribly allergic of such if it is what players like, but I prefer unavoidable goldsinks such as these.

[Toros]

Some considerations:

- Appraise is still very useful no matter how rich you are. It should not be forgotten that it also helps with selling items.

Yes, but current wealth is much greater of a factor than player skill, and the current setup very much encourages working around it.

- Personally I am in favour of such a gold sink. Apparently the PC has no other or insufficient gold sinks such as taxes, housing, donations, (greater) restorations or anything else. Then this is not so bad. If a PC spends a lot and ends up with 'only' 4 balan then any supplies shall automatically be cheaper again.

The character has a number of gold sinks, housing, has made a donation within the last 3 months.

- While this comes into play most with healing I feel that some other sources are very much ignored or downplayed too much. Trap components, identification kits, some specific clothes, armors/weapons sold by other parties at the smith and spell scrolls are all affected too and they are by no means not important. Add to that that some things may be purchased for rp reasons alone. Therefore it affects more classes than those taking the hits.

Those costs are very minimal. Trap components are typically found, ID kits last months, clothes are purely cosmetic, spell scrolls (not to be confused with spell reasearch) are not commonly available. While frontline classes bear the majority of the financial burden of adventuring parties, that is somewhat outside the scope of what I'm discussing.

- I think this feature can really help to promote rp. I am not sure how the brew potion stuff works now, but what if brewing costs are cheaper than the costs at the temple? Interesting no?

Brewing requires materials, coin, and is limited in how often it can be done. For healing, the cost is universally greater than what is offered by the temple.

- If this is a real concern at the moment then it seems like the cost for greater restoration is not such a issue anymore or am I wrong in that assumption? Also let me add that I know how much the costs increase. I have 3 PC's who pay quite a bit for any supplies at the moment, but they are all pretty loaded.

Jerek in particular is perhaps one of the least affected by this mechanic, and given that healing costs are the major player expense, those who are most capable of minimizing expenses (those with healing) are least hurt by this sort of handicap for those who have accumulated coin. The people who suffer most from the surcharge are those saving for a greater restoration while using healing supplies frequently.

For Jerek, 500 cp in reward from a dungeon means he now has 500 more cp, as he didn't need any healing items. For another character, they may need 250 cp to replace what they spent. As that second player gets closer to saving up for a greater restoration, they lose an additional 30% of their profit to increased prices for healing items, while Jerek (not needing to buy any) is given an easier time acquiring coin from dungeons and loses next to nothing in expenses scaling.

As for Toros' his suggestions. I would go for point 1. But I think it needs serious rephrasing since I absolutely do not agree it is totally unjustifiable through rp. 2 is too arbitrary to me. I am all for equality for all PC's. I am curious for suggestions about 3, but I think an unavoidable goldsink is a good one to have. If you make a goldsink avoidable (housing and donations are examples) then we shall have characters with 10 torntar much sooner than may be preferred by some. I am not terribly allergic of such if it is what players like, but I prefer unavoidable goldsinks such as these.

It makes perfect sense for unscrupulous shopkeepers to charge wealthy customers more, and I don't think anyone sees any issue with that. However, an Ilmateri priestess would be expected to have scruples, and given that healing is by far the greatest player expense as a whole, we have RP reasonableness and mechanics at odds.

[Loreweaver]

For those who wonder, the reason I offer IC explanations is that they are requested. See "..it feels quite unrealistic for Teresa..," "Why would a Good alligned priestess.." and so forth. In my opinion, it is not so difficult to find a plausible reason, but for those who prefer an argument along the lines of "that's just the way it is," I don't mind providing that reassurance instead.

I was under the impression it was evident, but on the mechanical level this is indeed a tool used to decrease the gap between wealthy and poor PCs, as well as one to encourage the wealthy to spend rather than save and/or to bring the poor into their employ.
At one stage you might be paying something like 56 cp for a 16 cp potion, yet while that is a lot it'll be nothing you can't spare then. Your character would already have proven their ability to turn a profit in order to get to that point, and should they see a reversal of fortunes, prices will drop to a more manageable level again.
Optimizing the various reward levels across the server is an ongoing task, of course, but I'm confident that they do not presently keep any character from being able to save up for a greater restoration, even in the light of price increases resulting from this system.

I would also suggest that you do get a discount for killing goblin armies and the like. As your character gains levels in the field they are given the option of increasing their potential to get a good price for all items they sell, and even if these options are neglected they still benefit from having more coin to spend than characters who do not kill goblin armies. I suspect not everyone would accept an abstraction in the form of "I got these potions for my hard work but I didn't bring back as much coin as I first thought I did" but as a general rule things should not be taken too literally. Though the focus of the engine is on combat, the focus of the game is on the stories we tell.