Price Scaling and Matching Faith Discounts

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Silver Snow
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Re: Price Scaling and Matching Faith Discounts

Postby Silver Snow » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:55 pm

I for one am pretty comfortable with the reasoning being a purely OOC one that we get to work around ourselves ICly. I think we all appreciate the effort to frame as many of the server's mechanics as possible in an in-character light, but it looks like a few of us are just having trouble making the IC explanation hold in this case. Would it be possible to know more deeply how the system works? Could it, say, start kicking in after a Torntar to consider those that are saving up for presumably multiple stat losses? Like Toros said, I think I'm affected by it somewhat less than others might be because my characters either have self healing or try and fight at the flanks or the back entirely.
As it seems like it's something of a sales tax based on income, though, can we actually instead provide another moneysink that feels more aligned? My idea is that those taxes that the city asks people to pay can scale in amount with character wealth instead, and be number-wise comparable to potions. Like potions, though, perhaps they can give some marked RP or mechanical benefit? I'm sure there's some other good ways to logically keep that wealth gap a bit smaller, though I think the trend I'm already seeing is that the wealthier tend to find moneysinks in housing, tithing, etc.

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blatob
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Re: Price Scaling and Matching Faith Discounts

Postby blatob » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:36 am

If I may?
Taxes - that would mean that we would have to check whether PCs payed them on regular basis. Sure. That would also make us tax collectors in a way, well, DMs anyway. Monthly audit and all that (I have no idea how the taxes work in rl outside of my country where they are payed automatically off the income). Somehow, I think that would not make us more popular :)

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Kilaana
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Re: Price Scaling and Matching Faith Discounts

Postby Kilaana » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:50 am

I would never dream of expecting, much less ask for, a discount from a church aligned with any one of my character's faith for either their services or their products. Unless it was the church of Waukeen for example. Just my personal preference approaching things from an RP perspective.
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Poisonous
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Re: Price Scaling and Matching Faith Discounts

Postby Poisonous » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:07 am

Silver Snow wrote:I'm sure there's some other good ways to logically keep that wealth gap a bit smaller, though I think the trend I'm already seeing is that the wealthier tend to find moneysinks in housing, tithing, etc.
Honestly there are very few moneysinks on the server currently. Housing buying/renting is quite forgiving and affordable, and also not necessary as everyone abuses the free temple rest point anyway. Taxes are not mandatory and are also very affordable.

My preference would be for stricter moneysinks. I propose that free non-wilderness rest points be removed, which realistically makes rest points actually valuable (ie houses and inns) and the survival skill valuable.

I don't mind my character being charged more at her church because of her known wealth--it does seem a tad OOC, and perhaps some sort of faction reputation mechanic that could influence prices would be neat! But ultimately it seems like a very small price to pay to fight inflation and account for the many invisible expenses characters would be racking up (like actually having to pay to sleep every night instead of just couchsurfing at the temple). :lol:

Edit: These costs were manageable before the recent loot increases (a few months ago?) when money was much harder to come by. The amount of coin every character has on hand has scaled significantly since then, and it seems fair to me that moneysinks counter that.
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Vogelens
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Re: Price Scaling and Matching Faith Discounts

Postby Vogelens » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:20 am

I do not quite agree to removing all the wilderness rest spots (As those helpo rangers/druids to rest, while staying IC and not come to town) but I do kind of agree with some other rest spots being removed. The free resting spot at the temple does trivialize the inns a bit, and I would not be against the temple one being gone. I think it would be a good idea to remove that one, actually
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Re: Price Scaling and Matching Faith Discounts

Postby Ataraxia » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:22 am

Dropping my two sardils. Money is incredibly easy to not only get, but keep, since there's not many necessities to spend it on but healing supplies or raise dead. Sure once in a while you'll come across a nice piece of gear from a store, dungeon or another player but generally that's a one time purchase you'll more than make up for with a few dungeons.

In my opinion Moneysinks are just half-measures because you'll need to create more and more of them to keep up with players. I'll try to think of a way to make money less hoard-able while adding more to the RP.

-Maybe make food/whatever a necessity to rest?
-A "recovering from wounds" point system that racks up based on the amount of damage(regardless of how much of it you healed back) you took in an X amount of time and penalizes you in some way for not fighting at peak efficiency (Would also be interesting for PVE, tired opponents won't be as combat-ready as rested ones) in order to pace adventuring and thus lower the amount of time it takes to get rich?
-Weapon/Armor maintenance based on durability?
-Some sort of penalty for vagrants to motivate characters to find serious lodgings? Most characters are inn-room hoppers in RP but with the limited amount of rooms and their near-obseleteness because of the Temple resting spot, very few pay rent in any way. A roof over the head to keep warm and rest in safety is, imo, a necessity.

None of these should become a chore or require too much work to implement but I'm just throwing ideas.
Also thanks for enduring if this has nothing to do with the thread, I tl;dred it so hard.

(A little off-topic but since Poison mentioned resting in wilderness, scripted ambushes could be a thing. Or make resting camps owned by bandits and what not so people need to fight for them if they really want them.)

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Feronius
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Re: Price Scaling and Matching Faith Discounts

Postby Feronius » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:05 am

If you want to introduce effective money sinks for the richer characters, targeting the essential server features that new characters or characters with very little money rely on is not the way to go about it. New characters (or at least new players) rely on the Temple's resting location to get by on this server. Removing it will barely affect the rich, but cripples the poor.
Not to mention, the rest system on this server can be a major inconvenience (for the player) as it is.

Further improving features like the mount system or henchmen may do a lot more to encourage players to spend their money. Give consumables an additional (minor) temporary bonus, so players have a reason to buy food and drinks more. Make the optional, but very useful, server features easier or more enticing to use and the result will probably be that players spend more of their money on them.
More encouragements to spend coin instead of penalizing the accumulation of wealth, essentially.

I believe this server honestly already has loads of money sinks as is, it is just that some of the bigger ones are buggy, some of the smaller ones (like food or drinks) do not really make a notable difference and with other server features you first require the assistance of a DM to be able to make use of them. DMs also being human beings with a life, they are of course oftentimes not available.


On top of that many players seem reluctant to spend their money because of the steep cost of Greater Restoration that looms over them like a dark cloud. Which does the exact opposite of the price scaling system. It tells players to constantly save up for or hang onto at least ten Balan in case they suffer an unlucky attribute loss that is crucial to their character's build or might inhibit their progress.
Suggesting changes to how this system works belongs in a separate thread, but I did think this system warranted a special mention as it seems to play an incredibly large role in the player economy on this server. It definitely does for me.
Perhaps less so once you get to a certain point of wealth or near the level cap, but keep in mind that it takes several real life months or in many cases over half a year for a lot of player characters to reach that point. Lots of characters/ players never do.


On a side note, this server feature of prices changes should really be mentioned or explained somewhere in more detail, other than the loading screen tip (which I always assumed was a joke.) When I first noticed the price scaling I just thought it was a bug or that the overall merchant prices had been tweaked. It did not even cross my mind that there could be an intended feature at play.
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Vogelens
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Re: Price Scaling and Matching Faith Discounts

Postby Vogelens » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:26 am

For the sake of discussion as well, just out of curiousity:

Are moneysinks -needed-? Why would we need them? What is against characters trying to become rich (Which is what adventuring is about), if they play it safe and careful and try to save up for something big? Or if they do not spend money, just to have the money?

What are the pros and cons of this? If economy gets absurd, it does get silly when it comes to bidding wars for magic items or the like but I have yet to see anything like that happen, also as the server is rather low magic with that, and items found generally find use within the group, too.

I too do have ideas for moneysinks, but I am curious about this, to see what people think about the subject of moneysinks being needed in the first place.
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Re: Price Scaling and Matching Faith Discounts

Postby Obsidian Sea » Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:53 am

Feronius wrote: Further improving features like the mount system or henchmen may do a lot more to encourage players to spend their money. Give consumables an additional (minor) temporary bonus, so players have a reason to buy food and drinks more. Make the optional, but very useful, server features easier or more enticing to use and the result will probably be that players spend more of their money on them.
More encouragements to spend coin instead of penalizing the accumulation of wealth, essentially.
Dipping into this discussion briefly, though I can't promise my commitment, I just wanted to pick up on this and say a few things--

1) Let's not make it necessary to eat food and drink water at increments in order to survive. It's Dungeons & Dragons, not The Sims. I always thought these kind of models were really tedious, though I understand this isn't strictly what Feronius is suggesting here.

2) Food and drink offering temporary bonuses isn't really a problem solver, as far as I'm aware. There is an apothecary where people can buy potions to boost their stats, gain freedom of movement, or improve their skill points in several different skills. Scrolls and other beneficial potions are available in Songhall. There is a location, also, where people can purchase trap components as well as an additional set of potions to increase stats and skill points. If people don't want to spend their money on these advantages, it's their money to hoard. If they can't find a use for their cash except Greater Restoration, that's nobody else's hangup. Money does not equal power, and stacking 5 Torntar doesn't entitle anybody to immediate access to character prestige. The RP comes first, and plenty of characters make their fame and/or affect the setting with their actions before they make their cash, and never require cash to do it. If people have lots of cash and don't want to splash out to spoil themselves with potions and things that can make their day-to-day adventures feel fun and different, that is their decision.

3) My main concern with disparity of funds is that it will lead to players and characters who are constantly hitting up dungeons and stockpiling cash being able to outbid every less regular or less dungeon-oriented player from acquiring magic items. It is a low-magic server, and the intention isn't that a few PCs will monopolize the magic item pool, with 7 rings and 5 pairs of boots, etc. etc. I do not think, however, that the DMs can really control this, so we just have to hope that the players will be good sports and understand that magic items are rare, and exceptionally rare for the players who don't get to go to dungeons on a daily (perhaps not even a weekly) basis.
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Re: Price Scaling and Matching Faith Discounts

Postby Toros » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:20 pm

Kilaana wrote:I would never dream of expecting, much less ask for, a discount from a church aligned with any one of my character's faith for either their services or their products. Unless it was the church of Waukeen for example. Just my personal preference approaching things from an RP perspective.
Well, in real life churches in the US typically charge less for weddings and other ceremonies fo their members, but on the features section on the wiki under the death category it states:

"Priests who share your character's deity offer a discount"

Though I assume that only applies to their services and not their goods.

As far as goldsinks, I'm currently working on one that should be interesting and plot related, but there's no way that Jerek's going to pay 350% the cost of a health potion simply because he has a lot of money. He'll simply avoid it.

As far as potions from the apothecary, I've never bought one because the sorts of potions worth buying aren't the kind he sells. No one in their right mind would spend an entire dungeon's profit on bull's strength. It's less efficient than using healing instead, almost always.

The sorts of things people would buy would be ghostly visage, invisibility, haste, barkskin, endure elements, and stoneskin. None of those are offered and freedom of movement costs oved 500.

As far as spreading around magic items, it seems the natural order of things that people who dungeon more have more, and I personally don't have any alts and would feel no guilt about poaching a magical item from another player's alt character. Jerek isn't the sort to horde magical items for their own sake, and even passed up on an item that was a massive upgrade over the Felimar Shield because it helped them more.
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