Daemonbinders and Blackguards

For things relating to the setting which doesn't fit in development, bugs or feedback.
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Kerstman
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:30 pm
Location: Central Euro Timezone

Re: Daemonbinders and Blackguards

Postby Kerstman » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:51 pm

About performing more or less evil actions. I have thus far been surprised that a PC that deals with undead, openly casts several necromancy spells, has performed acts that border on blood magic and on one time manipulated a corpse so it could be invaded with a corrupted spirit (it really was accidental) is walking around very much unhindered around Impiltur. Not that I am complaining, mind you. Please do not pitchfork her anytime soon because of this post. All I mean to say is that it does not seem to be the case that every potentially suspicious action is viewed with suspicion or thought of as illegal. Or at least it is an act with little or no harmful consequences for the one performing it.

I largely agree with the previous statements that a truly evil character works very differently and can operate far less freely than any good or neutral aligned PC. There is a big difference between performing evil acts with a non-evil motivation or doing the same with very naughty plans. However, I would never go as far as saying that it is impossible to play an evil PC on TER without success. Yes, it will be more difficult than with a nonevil PC and it may be unsuccessful, but I think there is a good chance for success with a good concept, DM advise and assistance and thoughtful roleplay. Reaching an evil PrC does not necessarily have to mean that the character throws around his or her evil abilities and indeed: having some similarly aligned comrades will help.

As for detect evil. I am pleased by Toros his statements about how he uses it for his PC. It indeed it is not a flawless system in the world of TER and any paladin who thinks otherwise is bound to make a call of bad judgment sooner or later, with all possible consequences. Also I really like to see that on TER we do not have paladins who use the ability every 30 seconds in inns, town squares and temples without making any emote around it.

When we enter the endless discussion of how the different alignments work in this game I urge everyone to carefully review the following post and use it is a guide for their characters as well as forgetting the traditional D&D alignment system. It is crystal clear and leaves very little room for misinterpretation.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=17
Mains
Fenneken : Obscure arcanist
Aleks : Rashemi barbie
Unger mac Rotu : Earthfast tunnel recon dwarf

Alts
Leopold Thunersdai : Damaran Tempurian
Badger: Mute hin archer

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booksarefun666
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Re: Daemonbinders and Blackguards

Postby booksarefun666 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:33 pm

Unfortunately in NWN in general, Blackguard has been fairly underwhelming beyond the first few levels and even in more orthodox servers than this one it's not typicallly warranting the hoops one have to jump through in the application process to even be considered for blackguard.

So I can definitely see why I don't see a whole bunch of them outside of NPCs, the class may have to be buffed for people even entertain taking on the baggage of being a blackguard or someone dabbling with daemons.

So how would you guys feel about these two classes being purposely given an edge over all the other classes that's still fitting for the class, but makes playing it and putting up with a blackguard/daemonbinder more tolerable for the results it produces? To a paladin, dealing with a blackguard being a genuine threat that they might actually hold off on it until they see something?

"Good" is really the expedient path to go on until temptation sets in and looking at them both, there's not really much to tempt a person from going off of pure fighter or wizard to be these things.

Toros
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Re: Daemonbinders and Blackguards

Postby Toros » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:21 am

booksarefun666 wrote:Unfortunately in NWN in general, Blackguard has been fairly underwhelming beyond the first few levels and even in more orthodox servers than this one it's not typicallly warranting the hoops one have to jump through in the application process to even be considered for blackguard.

So I can definitely see why I don't see a whole bunch of them outside of NPCs, the class may have to be buffed for people even entertain taking on the baggage of being a blackguard or someone dabbling with daemons.

So how would you guys feel about these two classes being purposely given an edge over all the other classes that's still fitting for the class, but makes playing it and putting up with a blackguard/daemonbinder more tolerable for the results it produces? To a paladin, dealing with a blackguard being a genuine threat that they might actually hold off on it until they see something?

"Good" is really the expedient path to go on until temptation sets in and looking at them both, there's not really much to tempt a person from going off of pure fighter or wizard to be these things.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1459

Shameless plug. I'd rework daemonbinder to fit in a 4/4 format if I understood it better.
Image

Also, I play Galondel.

Nodens
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Re: Daemonbinders and Blackguards

Postby Nodens » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:29 pm

Being the player of a character who was created with every intent to enter into the daemonbinder class, as well as being a longtime roleplayer of evil characters in general, I suppose I should offer my input.

Before all things, story. I know it's generally acknowledged and it tends to go without saying, but the quality of roleplay and narrative are enhanced beyond compare by the particular mortality of our characters. This goes for every character... but in the case of unrepentant evil, it goes doubly or triply so. I find this is a direct effect of the challenges that evil characters face. Their world is lonelier and scarier and in the end they are small, grasping, desperate things within it. Eventually, in all likelihood, they will die a horrible, wretched death. It is important to remember that whatever goals your character may have, you should be planning for a death which has meaning. The meaning will come from the journey, so make it count.

Our setting is commonly referred to as predominantly LG, but I would suggest that this is only a most basic appraisal. We have access to a vast land filled with tunnels, mountains, thick forests and fetid swamps. The men of the Reach huddle in their cities, safe in numbers as always, but if you stretch your imagination you might find that the night is filled with eyes, and they are many. The strength of goodness in our world is a strength born of unity above all else. The church is organised, while no neighboring dens of goblins, kobolds, and necromancers seem to be joining hands and plotting around a single war table. But it is important to recognize, nonetheless, that we have adventurers for a reason. Step away from the light and you'll find that reason many times over.

Some adventurers are there to purge the evil; most are there for more human reasons - and I don't mean to say that it is inhuman to feel a desire to combat evil for its own sake - in my own opinion, a man becomes an adventurer for less ideal purposes. Money. A sense of safety, for the kind of man who cannot sleep unless he's first put his fears to rest. Curiosity, a temptation which all-too-often leads the young-at-heart down dangerous paths.

The canny evil character is a master of connecting to those parts of the human condition which open the door to sympathy and corruption. Entertain a sense of wonder in the curious! Provide safety to the fearful, because you, unlike them, have the power to do so. No matter what you've sacrificed for it. And of course, well, everyone and their cousins know just how much coin you could make if you were willing to go a little bit further.
The point is that an evil character is above all things human, and recognizably so. This familiarity may be so intense as to bring out shame in those who encounter it, or in others, a hope that no one is past redemption. The darker half of the moral scale itself tends to go like so:

10% which does not even seem evil
80% which is evil and yet entirely understandable
10% which is evil beyond recognition.

It is a fearful thing, sometimes, to see this.

I think it's important to remember that in our setting, the common man or even adventurer hasn't necessarily developed a complex and complete set of values, morals, ideals and boundaries. They do not enter into a questionable situation and know already what their own answer is. Most water is muddy, if you understand what I mean by that.

And now it should be acknowledged that there are two distinct brands of evil: That of mundane evil, and that of supernatural evil.
Mundane evil is almost always easy to spot and easy to dislike and therefore easy to avoid and correct. The farmer who steals from his neighbors no longer has the blessing of the larger community. He loses his support, because he betrayed it. From one human to another, goodwill is the sacred bond which evil strains or breaks.

But the further you get from that familiarity, the easier it is to overlook the evil in a given act.
A farmer who chases off hin refugees instead of giving them aid may do so with acts of Evil. He might even kill one, but his community - and their perception of what is and isn't evil - comes into play here. Perhaps the hin were simply going to steal everything the humans owned and then move on? They're known for such things, so someone says. Clap on the back, we're all still brothers, thank you for protecting what peace we've found here.
And so evil perpetuates.

The further you go from the familiar, the harder it becomes to recognize explicit acts of evil.
A demon, in all likelihood, exudes a palpable aura of malicious intent and maybe more. A man who summons such a thing is forever marked by that darkness, and his willingness to expose himself to it. But if a man does it to protect his family, his farm, his village - in this situation, his neighbors see many things.
They see someone like them become something else - a master of forces dark and terrible. This scares them, bewilders them, one point for obvious evil.
They see someone protect what he has and fight not to lose it. This is eminently familiar, and what might they have done? One point for muddy water.
The world is a wide, dark place, and most of its denizens would rather not think too much about anything beyond what's in front of them. Those who do are often more forgiving. Those who adventure often have the capacity to understand.

At this point I'm probably on a long tangent with no clear conclusion. I'll try to add more later, because this certainly isn't done. I'm trying to say that evil, in many forms, can not only work in TER but thrive if roleplayed with care and love.

At some point I also need to talk about the different evil alignments, especially chaotic evil, in this setting.

As a mere player I make no claim that any of this is certain on this server.

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Copper Dragon
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Re: Daemonbinders and Blackguards

Postby Copper Dragon » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:09 pm

Thank you for this post, Nodens / No Light: this has been one of the, if not 'the' most convincing text I have seen with the message to appreciate Evil characters and how we can think about them. I look forward to seeing more.

~ Copper
Plays:
Artemis D'Assanthe, Dawnmaster
Udhana, the Kinless
Dhovainithil, Silver Elf
Jhasira of the Bai Kabor, Dawnbringer (deceased)

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Khaela Mensha Khaine
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Re: Daemonbinders and Blackguards

Postby Khaela Mensha Khaine » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:07 am

You also have my thanks for this post, Nodens; as someone who much prefers to roleplay Evil-aligned characters I've wanted to write something along the lines of what you've just said myself, but never had the patience for it.

I hope everyone takes the time to read this and ponder on Good and Evil as objective, mercurial things.


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