Wizarding 101

For things relating to the setting which doesn't fit in development, bugs or feedback.
Loreweaver
Administrator & Builder
Posts: 500
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: Wizarding frustrations

Postby Loreweaver » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:06 pm

It's not that they're stand-offish, it's just that you can't have meaningful conversations with a warrior... Everyone understands "take stick, smash with stick" so it's not hard to converse about a fighter's interests, but if you talk about your arcane passions their eyes glaze over and they change the subject. After a while you just stop trying, and figure that if you ever do need an ignorant brute to do you a favour there's always Charm Person.

User avatar
Kerstman
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 2:30 pm
Location: Central Euro Timezone

Re: Wizarding frustrations

Postby Kerstman » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:14 pm

I'd also say that being stand-offish or being that cool person who interacts with everybody is very unrelated to class. I've played more and less sociable warriors and some of my more obscure characters have been those chatty and outgoing types. I will have to admit I never played a wizard in a multiplayer environment, but I think they do not at all need to be the nerdy types.
Mains
Fenneken : Obscure arcanist
Aleks : Rashemi barbie
Unger mac Rotu : Earthfast tunnel recon dwarf

Alts
Leopold Thunersdai : Damaran Tempurian
Badger: Mute hin archer

Toros
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:54 am

Re: Wizarding frustrations

Postby Toros » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:08 pm

Loreweaver wrote:It's not that they're stand-offish, it's just that you can't have meaningful conversations with a warrior... Everyone understands "take stick, smash with stick" so it's not hard to converse about a fighter's interests, but if you talk about your arcane passions their eyes glaze over and they change the subject. After a while you just stop trying, and figure that if you ever do need an ignorant brute to do you a favour there's always Charm Person.
The more intelligent of the warriors are quite aware of how expendible casters consider them, and it doesn't help encourage additional favors.
Kerstman wrote:I'd also say that being stand-offish or being that cool person who interacts with everybody is very unrelated to class. I've played more and less sociable warriors and some of my more obscure characters have been those chatty and outgoing types. I will have to admit I never played a wizard in a multiplayer environment, but I think they do not at all need to be the nerdy types.
They don't need to be that way, but on TER I would say that there is a definite trend of casters who are not outgoing. As far as I know, no arcane caster has hit level 8 besides Gwen, and many are well over a year old. They aren't generally "adventuring types" and we've had a few mages who cast like it costs them money.

Even less personable warriors tend to hang around when a dungeon run is forming, and a barbarian can be trusted to willingly smash some heads. From Jerek's perspective, there are few mages willing to agree to go out and fight, and some in the past (Thinking of Sagi particularly) don't really contribute when they did.

At low level carrying mages through content is kind of an investment because at high level they can turn hard fights trivial with a single confusion spell. But with both generally uncharismatic casters and none really being interested in regular dungeon runs it isn't really an investment that pays off.

As an aside, I say that less from a mechanical perspective than a roleplay perspective. A mage that has money to fund their research and isn't forced to dungeon is unlikely to be interested in risking their life fighting trolls. Warriors tend to enjoy combat for it's own sake, not just for the spoils of war.

I mean, we have 2 level 8 pure divine casters, a number of warriors or hybrid warriors who have hit level 8, and not one pure arcanist at level 8.

Arcane classes as a fraction of the total are not particularly rare, either.
Image

Also, I play Galondel.

Silver Snow
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:28 am

Re: Wizarding frustrations

Postby Silver Snow » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:14 pm

Isalin is level 8, if I recall. But, generally mages have not been a very popular and successful class as compared to more melee oriented characters.

Toros
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:54 am

Re: Wizarding frustrations

Postby Toros » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:20 pm

Silver Snow wrote:Isalin is level 8, if I recall. But, generally mages have not been a very popular and successful class as compared to more melee oriented characters.
Isalin must be recent then, at probably a year and a half of age.

I'd argue though that mages being less successful than divine casters has been entirely driven by the roleplay leading to less dungeon running and generally less alliances.

Sitting back and buffing early is easy amd generally worth bringing the mage along because loot tends to scale so it's a neutral contribution at worst. Once a mage gets to level 3 they start getting better buffs and CC spells, and at level 5 should be able to make hard boss fights easy.
Image

Also, I play Galondel.

blueluminaire
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:32 pm

Re: Wizarding frustrations

Postby blueluminaire » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:24 pm

Personally, in playing a wizard that doesn't reveal his magic, it's occasionally been nightmare difficulty. Half of that's on me, of course, and it's subject to change with more character development. But I feel like it must still be difficult to play the class more openly.

I can appreciate the obstacles of playing a mage in low-level FR. In many ways it makes the selection more unique, as fewer players will want to choose those classes. You are regarded as someone who has access to a dangerous and hidden world, so right away you have an advantage in standing out. With persistence, you could truly become one of a special few.

With that said, I think a few improvements could be made to the experience. Certain buffs could stand to see an increase in duration (it seems that TER has already increased some of them vs. standard NWN, but others were nerfed). Yeah, there's something to the idea that you should strategize the time and place to use buffs, but those critical moments of payoff are already few and far between. As such, the casting of arcane spells is few and far between. Maybe I just need to get Extend Spell. Other decisions regarding buffs seem a bit asinine; for example, Shield only applies to piercing damage, and Mage Armor only applies to bludgeoning and slashing damage. These spells are supposed to represent the conjuring of magical armor and a magical shield made out of force fields. Do regular armor or shields only defend against one attack type?

Items considered as mage resources are also not only rare (as they should be, to a degree) but laughably unavailable. I may be wrong, but as far as I can tell blank wands are only guaranteed in one location. And that's one blank wand per server reset, by the way. Spell crystals suffer from a similar rotation, and only the 'crude' variety can actually be bought. Neither of these items are discovered in loot even semi-regularly. The same goes for scrolls, though they are much easier to purchase from certain NPCs and PCs. Scrolls are also rightfully much cheaper to make, but wands quickly reach a point where it takes a small fortune to invest in even level 2 spells. Again, this all makes these items seem very precious and unique, but I think the objective result is often not worth the cost. Especially for wands when the charges you get for your money are restricted to 1d20 + 3 + 1/character level.

All in all, I've had a blast playing my wizard so far, but that is more so because of my own RP efforts than anything mechanical under my own power. I deliberately chose to play a mage that starts off hiding his magic, but if anyone had told me the wizard's journey is mostly just running around with a crossbow, I'd have had second thoughts.

By the way, it's often not even that. The ability to purchase authentic crossbow bolts is almost nonexistent beyond the starting area chest, and if you want to buy some illegal knockoffs, those "basic" bolts come with an attack penalty. Just sayin'!
Last edited by blueluminaire on Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Highlander
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:06 pm

Re: Wizarding frustrations

Postby Highlander » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:36 pm

A rather narrow definition of success to just count levels, the likes of Hroin and Sagi are wonderfully memorable and interesting characters, and a lack of dungeon time can be as much a reflection of player availability as anything else.
Lori Peveril: Enchanter
Azruphel Krathas: Kossuthan

User avatar
Poisonous
Posts: 527
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Wizarding frustrations

Postby Poisonous » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:52 pm

blueluminaire wrote:Personally, in playing a wizard that doesn't reveal his magic, it's occasionally been nightmare difficulty. Half of that's on me, of course, and it's subject to change with more character development. But I feel like it must still be difficult to play the class more openly...

With that said, I think a few improvements could be made to the experience...


Items considered as mage resources are also not only rare (as they should be, to a degree) but laughably unavailable...

...By the way, it's often not even that. The ability to purchase authentic crossbow bolts is almost nonexistent beyond the starting area chest, and if you want to buy some illegal knockoffs, those "basic" bolts come with an attack penalty. Just sayin'!
A few quick notes.

1. Half of that's not on you, all of that is. I realize I'm being blunt, but imagine if as a player of a priest I insisted there were issues with the priest class, and pointed to my experience of playing a priest that pretends not to be a priest and doesn't use her priest abilities in groups. It's an entirely valid thing to RP, but it lowers one's credibility on the subject.

2. I admit I'm not the best with mechanics and balancing, but it seems to me like mid and full level mages are perfectly powerful, and becoming any more powerful would likely be overcompensating. My understanding is that weakness is standard for low-level mages across dnd and most nwn servers.

3. Have you tried asking other players, putting up notices, etc? I'm sure there are more than a few of us sitting on large hoards of crystals. There's a place or two to purchase them, and over time dungeoning they will build up too.

4. Bolts can be purchased at the fletcher, I believe, with the correct taxes paid. They're also everywhere and anywhere in dungeons, to the point that usually I can just ask if anyone has bolts for me and several people are able to hand them over.
Mother Kelda Adler, high priestess of The Crying God. Found in Kelda's Clinic & Sarshel City South.
Hedwithien Le'lewaluin, wanderer. Found in ???
Larkka Kowalczyk , hedge witch. Found in ???
Image
DM Poisonous - Currently on hiatus.

Toros
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:54 am

Re: Wizarding frustrations

Postby Toros » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:23 pm

Highlander wrote:A rather narrow definition of success to just count levels, the likes of Hroin and Sagi are wonderfully memorable and interesting characters, and a lack of dungeon time can be as much a reflection of player availability as anything else.
Depends how we're defining success. From an IC perspective, a successful mage is one that can cultivate knowlege and skill in casting spells. The most "successful" mage is the one that can work the most powerful or difficult spells.

If we're defining success as being memorable and interesting then there's really no point in doing dungeons at all, because being memorable or interesting has nothing to do with level or class.
blueluminaire wrote:Personally, in playing a wizard that doesn't reveal his magic, it's occasionally been nightmare difficulty. Half of that's on me, of course, and it's subject to change with more character development. But I feel like it must still be difficult to play the class more openly.

I can appreciate the obstacles of playing a mage in low-level FR. In many ways it makes the selection more unique, as fewer players will want to choose those classes. You are regarded as someone who has access to a dangerous and hidden world, so right away you have an advantage in standing out. With persistence, you could truly become one of a special few.

With that said, I think a few improvements could be made to the experience. Certain buffs could stand to see an increase in duration (it seems that TER has already increased some of them vs. standard NWN, but others were nerfed). Yeah, there's something to the idea that you should strategize the time and place to use buffs, but those critical moments of payoff are already few and far between. As such, the casting of arcane spells is few and far between. Maybe I just need to get Extend Spell. Other decisions regarding buffs seem a bit asinine; for example, Shield only applies to piercing damage, and Mage Armor only applies to bludgeoning and slashing damage. These spells are supposed to represent the conjuring of magical armor and a magical shield made out of force fields. Do regular armor or shields only defend against one attack type?

Items considered as mage resources are also not only rare (as they should be, to a degree) but laughably unavailable. I may be wrong, but as far as I can tell blank wands are only guaranteed in one location. And that's one blank wand per server reset, by the way. Spell crystals suffer from a similar rotation, and only the 'crude' variety can actually be bought. Neither of these items are discovered in loot even semi-regularly. The same goes for scrolls, though they are much easier to purchase from certain NPCs and PCs. Scrolls are also rightfully much cheaper to make, but wands quickly reach a point where it takes a small fortune to invest in even level 2 spells. Again, this all makes these items seem very precious and unique, but I think the objective result is often not worth the cost. Especially for wands when the charges you get for your money are restricted to 1d20 + 3 + 1/character level.

All in all, I've had a blast playing my wizard so far, but that is more so because of my own RP efforts than anything mechanical under my own power. I deliberately chose to play a mage that starts off hiding his magic, but if anyone had told me the wizard's journey is mostly just running around with a crossbow, I'd have had second thoughts.

By the way, it's often not even that. The ability to purchase authentic crossbow bolts is almost nonexistent beyond the starting area chest, and if you want to buy some illegal knockoffs, those "basic" bolts come with an attack penalty. Just sayin'!
Playing a wizard that doesn't cast means you are mechanically worse than a civilian. I'd imagine that would be difficult.

As far as the accumulation of spell crystals, scrolls, and wands, I'm still waiting for a wizard to take the initiative and put up a messageboard post about such, because a lot of warriors have a bunch of useless spell crystals lying around. Drops are better at higher levels in more difficult areas, but wizards should be smart enough to use the community, not just a single shop.

Also,
blueluminaire wrote:Do regular armor or shields only defend against one attack type?
Kevlar vests can be made to resist bullets, or to resist stabbing, but making it better for one purpose can make it worse for another. Middle ages full plate also used a variety of materials to protect against different types of force. Padding helped absorb the force of the blow, and hardened steel helped distribute force from edged weapons.

That said, it's magic and doesn't need to follow the properties of mundane armor.

As far as purchasing ammo, it's very true that ammunition to buy is rare, but wizards are hardly the only class affected by that. Certain dungeons allow the accumulation of a large surplus of ammo, and I would again encourage you to reach out to the community as I know there are some characters with extra who would be willing to sell.
Image

Also, I play Galondel.

blueluminaire
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:32 pm

Re: Wizarding frustrations

Postby blueluminaire » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:33 pm

Poisonous wrote:
A few quick notes.

1. Half of that's not on you, all of that is. I realize I'm being blunt, but imagine if as a player of a priest I insisted there were issues with the priest class, and pointed to my experience of playing a priest that pretends not to be a priest and doesn't use her priest abilities in groups. It's an entirely valid thing to RP, but it lowers one's credibility on the subject.
Well, everything to do with not actually using the magic is on me, yes. The "other half" was to preface the rest of the issues, which aren't exactly invisible even if you choose not to engage in the mechanics IC (yet).
Poisonous wrote:2. I admit I'm not the best with mechanics and balancing, but it seems to me like mid and full level mages are perfectly powerful, and becoming any more powerful would likely be overcompensating. My understanding is that weakness is standard for low-level mages across dnd and most nwn servers.
Weakness for low-level mages is pretty standard in D&D. Mages are generally supposed to be weaker in the beginning to compensate for a massive boost in versatility and diversity of function later on when compared to melee classes. That being said, TER's level range never really reaches the point where that becomes fully seen, so that should be taken into account.
Poisonous wrote:3. Have you tried asking other players, putting up notices, etc? I'm sure there are more than a few of us sitting on large hoards of crystals. There's a place or two to purchase them, and over time dungeoning they will build up too.
Admittedly, not yet, given the aforementioned state of the character's development. I'll certainly be putting that to use where it makes sense, when it makes sense. I wasn't protesting a lack of engagement on that end precisely because I haven't promoted it yet.
Poisonous wrote:4. Bolts can be purchased at the fletcher, I believe, with the correct taxes paid. They're also everywhere and anywhere in dungeons, to the point that usually I can just ask if anyone has bolts for me and several people are able to hand them over.
Is that the case? I wasn't sure if shops restricted their inventories based on citizenship or licenses, but if that's the case then it's good to know. Personally I haven't seen many shared from dungeon loot yet, but maybe that's just a case of people assuming that no one needs them and thus not mentioning them when they're found.
Toros wrote:Playing a wizard that doesn't cast means you are mechanically worse than a civilian. I'd imagine that would be difficult.

As far as the accumulation of spell crystals, scrolls, and wands, I'm still waiting for a wizard to take the initiative and put up a messageboard post about such, because a lot of warriors have a bunch of useless spell crystals lying around. Drops are better at higher levels in more difficult areas, but wizards should be smart enough to use the community, not just a single shop.
Again, making use of the player community is a perfectly valid suggestion. However, I've yet to see more than a small handful of these items actually result from loot gained in the moment, which is where it counts. Having to petition experienced dungeoneers to give my wizard their magic items only creates interesting dynamics within a limited range before one starts to wonder why those characters are holding onto all that magic stuff in the first place, or why the wizard can't get it sufficiently using their existing allies.
Toros wrote:Kevlar vests can be made to resist bullets, or to resist stabbing, but making it better for one purpose can make it worse for another. Middle ages full plate also used a variety of materials to protect against different types of force. Padding helped absorb the force of the blow, and hardened steel helped distribute force from edged weapons.

That said, it's magic and doesn't need to follow the properties of mundane armor.
That doesn't exactly explain why it's more limited than TER's medieval armor, which as always gives you a standard AC value regardless of anything else. If I'm conjuring a magic force field, you would think the efficacy would be equal to or greater than the all-around benefits of the metal armor, not arbitrarily weaker. But I suppose that's just my opinion.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests