Breach Guard for all races

[Feronius]

Why would halflings be able to learn this over humans though? They lack the same requirements.
This seems like a situation where you either give anyone access to it or you keep things as they are.

The smaller races have other racial stats that are much better than humans' bonuses for most classes. Either way trying to adress these concerns through the selection of available prestige classes that each race has does not seem like the way to go about changing this largely unrelated concern. Introducing a few race specific feats would be less of a stretch I think, though this also feels kind of off-topic.

[Crowbot]

Why would halflings be able to learn this over humans though? They lack the same requirements.
This seems like a situation where you either give anyone access to it or you keep things as they are.

Absolutely, I agree completely. Going purely by the racial restrictions as is, I think the only one that genuinely meets all of the current requirements (save for a lawful alignment, possibly) would be half-orcs. Humans seem flexible enough that I could see them doing just about anything when it comes to the available prestige classes, there's not too much I can really say about them not having a reason to be a Breach Guard. Halflings have followers of Arvoreen, which I think would still work for the concept if you can ignore the darkvision or low-light vision part of it. Elves are a little trickier (incidentally, Defensive Awareness I would actually be pretty handy if you're a dexterity fighter tank build of some sort) to justify, but I could probably still see it with their relatively limited population.

If a lawful alignment is the primary thing keeping the rest of the races from picking up the prestige class, why not just change that too? It seems like it's just a holdover from the old PrC anyway. I feel like any non-chaotic, non-evil would be a little more fitting for a class built for martyrs, though I can't really see it working out for someone that's true neutral. I realize the ridiculousness of now pushing for even less restrictions, but I just don't see why it needs to be lawful-only either.

[Feronius]

Probably because it is so heavily tied in with the dwarven culture and the strict oaths of honour that they uphold in battle, all that sort of lawful inclined personal codes stuff. As well as the methodical approach that they have to fighting and battle in general.

Though I somewhat agree, I can see someone pulling it off with a neutral character as well. Chaotic though, not so much.

[EventHorizon]

I don't think my opinion weighs too heavily one way or another here - I'll simply say that I think Halflings in the Lluirwood and other more chaotic places might be inclined toward guerilla warfare, but my impression of Yondallan Halfling fighters and "guardian" types is very much the "stout, unbreakable warrior with a kite shield and a shortsword" type, even if it isn't a reaver of destruction on the battlefield; lots of these buggers together might pose a formidable defense -

Besides that, however, my main point is this:

In TER, our characters start at level 2. Unlike many other servers, we... really do have to be level 2, and 3, and 4, for a very long time, such that, unlike on other servers where the advancement may be quick at first, we can't reach level 5 or 6 on our PCs and say "Uh, yeah... Simo Smith was always this awesome." In other words, whatever our characters experience to gain them levels in this or that class have more to do with their actual TER experiences than their backgrounds. With that in mind, I think that a PrC like Breach Guard's restrictions relying on original background might be off a bit.

After all, if it requires a background in (the cultural information Loreweaver described earlier), then in order to take the Breach Guard PrC, your character really needs to have that written into their background already and then go a very long time without ever taking levels in the class, or the character needs to be heavily inundated in Dwarven/Gnomish/Breach Guardish culture in the TER play area - and I don't think the latter is very likely to happen.

I don't know which way that critique moves the discussion, but, to reiterate, I think it's important to note that PCs on TER don't start taking their second, third, and fourth levels, and especially their PrC levels, until they've been in Impiltur for quite some time, so it is difficult to expect Breach Guard-aspiring PCs to take their PrC development cues from Dwarven/Gnomish defensive culture as the staff might perhaps wish.

Edit: I had Chondalwood and Lluirwood/Luiren confused, because I was tired, as I am now hehe

[Crowbot]

I would perhaps think that another requirement would be fitting instead though, like a certain CON score or something.

What do people think of breach guard requiring toughness and defensive training vs giants, with the latter added as a general feat?

Has there been any more consideration into what would be an acceptable trade for the racial restrictions?

I'm mostly just seeing what sticks at this point, but a minimum CON score of 15 seems pretty fine. Gnomes and dwarves will already have an easier time getting there, but it becomes somewhat more of an investment for the other races (elves most of all) that may find themselves spread a bit thin if they want to consider taking levels in Breach Guard. As far as feats are concerned, toughness seems like a fine fit and doesn't require any changes. It probably wouldn't be too much to return to the original requirements Dwarven Defender had of both toughness and dodge, but something like great fortitude or iron will might still work for the concept too. I'd throw out Expertise too, but that's absolutely a feat a frontliner is going to be taking anyway. The other three are still beneficial, but not necessarily as optimal (ugh, dodge) and always useful.

[Feronius]

I'd throw out Expertise too, but that's absolutely a feat a frontliner is going to be taking anyway.

My dwarf and future Breach Guard will probably not take Expertise. Expertise is also already a bonus feat for Breach Guard.
Improved Expertise seems to kind of replace Defensive Stance, which to me is one of the most iconic things about the PrC.

I also really do not like the idea of forcing multiple feat requirements onto a PrC. Especially a class like Breach Guard (or any melee combat or tanking role) is going to be very feat dependant and already stretched thin on them as it is, even if you pick up levels of fighter. Putting down multiple feat requirements makes character builds extremely restrictive, especially for non-humans, since that means almost all of your feats prior to level 4 are already predetermined.
I already think being required to pick up Toughness is largely a wasted feat slot and another reason for players to just go with a pure fighter or paladin.


If the staff wants to consider opening up Breach Guard to other races, then I would expect the additional requirement to instead be something that makes up for the lack of exposure to dwarven of gnomish culture. And something that somewhat ties in to the whole specialisation of fighting in confined spaces and holding off enemies many times their number. As those were the main reasons Loreweaver gave for the PrC not being available to other races.
The closest thing I can think of to emulate this is to give Breach Guard a Knowledge: Dungeoneering 7 requirement.

I would ideally like to see Breach Guard requirements go from this...

Alignment: Any Lawful
Base Attack Bonus: +4.
Feats: Toughness.
Race: Dwarf or Gnome.

To something more like this...

Alignment: Any Lawful
Base Attack Bonus: +4.
Skill: Knowledge: Dungeoneering 7.
(Race: Dwarf or Gnome.)

[Crowbot]

My dwarf and future Breach Guard will probably not take Expertise. Expertise is also already a bonus feat for Breach Guard.
Improved Expertise seems to kind of replace Defensive Stance, which to me is one of the most iconic things about the PrC.

The main issue with Defensive Stance is just how limited it is. In the right circumstances (a doorway ideally with a horde of enemies that don't have knockdown incoming and don't have archers/spellcasters) it's a pretty awesome ability but it's just so area-specific. I do kinda wish it was a temporary buff that slowed you down to walking speed (for when you inevitably lose enemy aggro and they go chasing down the squishy mage that hit them with a crossbow bolt) instead of being a combat mode, but that's something for another thread.

As far as the changed requirements to one of the Knowledge skills are concerned, that.. actually is better. I completely forgot they existed, in truth.

[Loreweaver]

First of all, there is of course no reason we couldn't make a generalistic defensive warrior class. We chose not to do so, because we wanted to preserve the original PrCs as much as possible (only the RDD, renamed Dragon Cultist in the concepts, failed to survive the conversion because we prefer our dragons rare and violent) and the Dwarven Defender very much fills the role such a general class would take up. The inclusion of gnomes has everything to do with the existence of a Breachgnome PrC which has a significant thematic overlap with the DD. Restyling the class to something entirely generic seemed a bit of a shame, as it drains away the flavour and leaves the class features less cohesive.

Regarding halfling warriors, it's true that Yondalla's always carry a shield and are prepared to fight in melee, though they will also carry a sling or shortbow most of the time. Typically, a small number of such warriors makes use of a series of fortifications, traps and ambush points when defending their territory, falling back to the next location rather than engaging in sustained combat.
Arvoreen's followers too tend to use ranged weapons to attack from multiple directions before disappearing, to lead the enemy off-course, to trap forces in unfavourable terrain or simply to simulate a larger army than the halflings can actually field. When possible, they seek to get behind enemy lines to cause further confusion, to sabotage equipment or steal supplies. They will use a series of signalling beacons to coordinate attacks and a halfling-height, maze-like tunnel network to help them reposition, all well before the enemy comes within sight of the halfling settlement.
That's not to say they are not trained for melee or only use lighter armours. Halfling warriors are perfectly happy to strike at vulnerable targets, and if they must make a stand, they know the tunnels are a good place to do so. But these tunnels do not contain their homes, and they're used to get from one surface location to the next rather than as main battleground, which means there's no great need to specialize in holding them against all comers.

Regarding the martyrdom, while this sounds like just the sort of thing Ilmater would approve of, remember that he is not a particularly warlike or violent deity. He has little tolerance for cruelty, and some of his agents specifically hunt down torturers and the like. But overall he tends more towards healing or the endurance of that which doesn't heal, and leaves others free to make their own mistakes rather than imposing his will. His followers are far more likely to buy time by seeking parley or offering themselves as hostages than they are to take up arms and prepare to die in some last stand. Helm, Torm, Tempus, Garagos and Red Knight would all be more likely to produce someone capable of single-handedly facing a horde in defense of a location, though their motivations may vary. Like the halflings, however, humans have little need to specialize in this style of fighting when most of their battles take a different form and a strong defensive fighter is easily bypassed on the surface world.

Regarding the benefits of the class, damage reduction is indeed one of the major ones. A Barbarian will get similar results, gaining DR 4/- while enraged and Uncanny Dodge and a good HP pool, but has a harder time supplementing their DR and HP with additional AC (either from heavy armour and a shield as Fighter or Paladin, or from Balance and attributes as Ranger or Monk) and/or Parry deflection and/or concealment from Shield Wall for maximum combat survivability. By the time you get this Breach Guard DR, an equal level caster might be able to sustain a Stoneskin spell instead for a (usually) superior DR 10/+2 (since it's not too hard to plan most adventures in such a way that your casters don't run out of spells, or at least can apply them when they'll be most benificial). At the same time, casters are usually better off buffing someone with a lot of base potential than they are buffing themselves, so a mixed group tends to work best and the Breach Guard makes excellent defensive material to work with. And most likely, the character will already be sturdy well before the DR kicks in.

Related to this is the argument that a Breach Guard does not start life as one, and goes through several levels before they pick up their training, during few of which they're actually living in a gnomish or dwarven settlement. This would suggest that it's impossible to integrate a background requirement into a prestige class unless there is explicit opportunity for in-game training. To that, I can only say that's not the case. All prestige classes imply special training, and while some like the Daemonbinder or Spirit Caller could make use of a daemonic or spectral mentor so as to appear self-taught, or others like the High Mage or Palemaster may be based on knowledge drawn from texts, you'll have to explain your character's access to the necessary teachings one way or the other. We don't enforce this by making you find trainers or survive an entry quest, but it's never a skillset you just happen to pick up as part of your natural development. I likened prestige classes to paladins more than to fighters earlier to help illustrate this.
You could certainly see the base class as the first steps on the path to mastering the PrC, in the way that a Monk/Breach Guard for instance can have a Breach Guard personality from the start (in addition to the requirements of the Monk class, of course). Maybe they've already studied the theory behind the class and now seek the experience they need to put their teachings into prespective. Such a character will have to acknowledge that they have much to learn before they can take up their role in full but need no development to come into their abilities. Yet it's equally possible that the decision to take up the class (or the opportunity to learn about its secrets) comes a bit later in life. I recommend approaching a PC with the class for lessons if possible, because it can be lots of fun. But you're also most welcome to invent an NPC who can help out your character instead. Maybe you return to your home community for some time, maybe you seek out a hermit whenever you're not logged in, or maybe you can ask someone to engage in offline RP with you if you'd like some validation of your concept. It's all in your hands.

As for the class requirements, I think they're not particularly steep. Both the racial and alignment aspect are met at character creation, or likely never will be. The lawful alignment reflects the respect for your culture, the willingness to give your life because it's demanded of you by said culture (and therefore the right thing to do, once you've chosen this path for yourself, even though not dying against impossible odds would likely be more convenient to you), and implies a level of discipline and solemnity required to make and stand by such a decision which translates to a certain reliability and control in battle.
The base attack requirement is easily met by all five warrior base classes, and considering that this is primarily a melee combat-oriented prestige class, that is fitting. Bards, rogues, druids and priests can eventually qualify as well, though they are not the optimal choice. Lastly, the Toughness feat builds upon the PrC's HP pool in much the same way that the racial CON modifier does, strengthening its primary defensive attribute. It may not be the best feat in the game, but it offers a direct contribution to the class. This one feat is all you need to qualify once the race, class and alignment choices are made (and there's nothing disadvantageous about, say, choosing a lawful dwarven fighter), and the feat has no special requirements of its own.
In comparison, the Weapon Master requires 3 feat picks, INT and DEX 13+ and points in a skill if you want to qualify for maximum levels. In many ways this is more limiting than a racial requirement, because it means only a fighter or a human barbarian can make a perfect match. Personally, I believe it's good that we have some variety in PrC requirements and so a racial restriction is not necessarily a bad thing. It's all about the target audience of a PrC, and in this case it's one of the things which keeps the Breach Guard open to all sorts of builds without it becoming all too common.

[EventHorizon]

I really like the approaches LW offers in paragraph 5, e.g. "maybe you seek out a hermit whenever you're not logged in." They really do provide solutions to the problem of "but how am I becoming a Breach Guard?"