XP, Loot, and Death Systems

[Silver Snow]

I'm very content with the status quo as it is for death and XP. The system is harming no one and LW brought up good points. I heavily disagree with additional mechanical impositions on other peoples' play, unless RP or setting is somehow being grossly violated. The biggest benefit of the level 8 cap system is that the concept of seniority from a mechanical standpoint is fairly irrelevant as the level gaps are small enough that even the lower levels can contribute to higher level parties. As the e8 system develops this may widen some but as LW mentioned, level and XP and even magic item amount are not going to be as influential without supporting rp. The longer a character is around the more rp they wind up getting, and ability in a dungeon is only some of that. In the end this shouldn't be a source of extra DM work.
While the better magic items should in my opinion be far more correlated with higher average levels and challenges..of -course- the characters that dungeon and go out more and take more risks are going to get more chances for magic item rewards, that to me seems like common sense. Dungeoning is an inherent part of the server and is tied to magic items and rewards in both XP and items directly. Just being an older level 8 character should not entitle anyone to better rolls on the rng loot table while someone else is out there rolling more often. DM spawned magic items as the major award mechanism is also a heavily flawed idea because it then deprives those without regular or consistent DM attention even further and is a challenge in impartiality and fairness that I feel can't be approached fairly.

Grinding is a very derogatory term I feel for playing the game and playing to one of the server strengths. There's plenty of people that enjoy the game for its mechanical and pve merits as much as for the roleplay and that should be respected and embraced, while I feel it has been more so judged and cast in a bad light.

[Poisonous]

While the better magic items should in my opinion be far more correlated with higher average levels and challenges..of -course- the characters that dungeon and go out more and take more risks are going to get more chances for magic item rewards, that to me seems like common sense. Dungeoning is an inherent part of the server and is tied to magic items and rewards in both XP and items directly.

Yes, but that's not what the issue is.

The issue is this: If magic items have an equal chance to appear in all dungeons, then the characters who play lots of the same low-level easier dungeons inevitably have an easier shot at getting more items.

Let's ignore "number of dungeons" for a moment. Let's say Player A does seven dungeons a week and all of them are easy, low-level dungeons. Player B also does seven dungeons a week, but only difficult and risky dungeons. As it stands, Player A will be rewarded just as much as Player B.

Also, Player A will probably get more magic items overall because they have a higher rate of success, due to only attempting easy dungeons.

I hope that clarifies the problem with the existing loot system. It's not about amount of dungeoning, but rather that it's easier to increase one's chances of finding magic loot when doing lots of easy dungeons, and it's harder when doingharder dungeons. Characters that never or rarely attempt more difficult dungeons should not be rewarded as well as characters that do.

That's not fair, and it doesn't encourage players to go out and experience all the cool, challenging content the server has to offer. Trust me, there's some really incredible dungeons that I hope more players get to--and want to--see.

It's not really about punishing one style over the other. It's about giving all characters incentives to do what the server was meant for--challenging, unique dungeons.

Just being an older level 8 character should not entitle anyone to better rolls on the rng loot table while someone else is out there rolling more often.

Well, that's not what was proposed as far as I saw. What was proposed was having less chances for rolls in lower level dungeons. It's logical that more dangerous areas should have more magical items--why would magical items be hanging out in the wasp cave by Outentown, for example?

DM spawned magic items as the major award mechanism is also a heavily flawed idea because it then deprives those without regular or consistent DM attention even further and is a challenge in impartiality and fairness that I feel can't be approached fairly.

I agree, I don't feel that relying on DM spawned magic items is a good policy.

Grinding is a very derogatory term I feel for playing the game and playing to one of the server strengths. There's plenty of people that enjoy the game for its mechanical and pve merits as much as for the roleplay and that should be respected and embraced, while I feel it has been more so judged and cast in a bad light.

I, too, enjoy the game for its mechanical and pve merits. I enjoy dungeoning, and I'm saddened by how little use the more difficult dungeons get. However, I don't know what else we can call grinding and I don't feel it is a derogatory term. When I speak of grinding, I'm not referring to dungeoning--these are two very different things with admittedly a subjective distinction. I see nothing in the suggestion that judges or wants to punish those who grind. Rather, encouraging the slower pace that was intended for the server.

Neither of the proposals punish grinding. A player can play twenty easy dungeons twenty mid dungeons and twenty endgame/hard dungeons all in the same week without these proposals and receive the same rewards as with these proposals. The only difference is that a player couldn't play sixty easy dungeons with the same reward, and a player who plays ten difficult dungeons doesn't feel like they're wasting their time.

[Poisonous]

Sorry to double post, but I think what's especially important is that this status quo is not allowed for post 8 levels (e8s, level 12, whatever) if those are implemented. To allow characters to grind through e8s/etc at breakneck speed would be especially detrimental to the health of the server and player morale, as well as RP. I cannot emphasize enough how much I hope something like this proposal will be implemented to slow post-8 progression.

Edit: To add another point. A reason why grinding the same safer (in terms of CR, familiarity, etc) dungeons can be less RP friendly is this. I think we all understand that our characters haven't in-character truly murdered hundreds of the same creature. After a certain point, there's an understanding that the numbers of the same enemies/dungeon no longer scale exponentially in character. We stop acknowledging those numbers, and rightfully so. In contrast, a character who has challenged a wider variety of dungeons has more RP experience to draw on. Each of those experiences carries more of its own weight in terms of the roleplay. Level 8 is, in terms of this server, the pinnacle of ability and experience. That should mean something, and encouraging players to push into less safe dungeons and to dungeon at a more consistent pace--this helps the eight levels make more sense in character.

[Kerstman]

Of course. I understand that you feel this is an issue, and I know others have said the same. Quite possibly, we'll act on it in some form or another.
Speaking for myself, I only have characters who are nowhere near their caps and will in all likelihood never reach 1000 xp/week either, and I am at peace with the thought that others advance more rapidly. I may even prefer it that way.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone reaches level 8 within a week or the like, good for them but I'm going to guess they won't enjoy being stuck at 8 and will not automatically be as influential or powerful as perhaps they hoped to be. I may be wrong - what I enjoy is not what others enjoy - but I think taking it slowly is the wiser and the more fulfilling choice. And if there's a way which allows active players to make this 'mistake,' I feel no urge to forbid it and keep them from finding out for themselves.

My feeling as a player is exactly like how LW put it here. I have 5 chars because I suffer from altritis. I think all of them are uncapped to beyond level 8 and none of them have ever been close to the monthly cap. I am not looking very forward to having them hard capped at 8 and i do not mind it taking me more than 2 years for them to get there. If others wish to do this quicker then they can, by all means. Good for them.

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Something to consider for easier vs more risky dungeons. While this is by no means an excuse, it may be noted that some hard places are further out of the way of the starting point and most of the players have a limited amount of playtime per day. Obviously they could pre-arrange such events and this doesn't apply to all more difficult dungeons. Another thing to consider is that some chars shall ICly avoid some dungeons. There are people who rather not kill bandits and pirates. Most of my chars avoid undead like the plague, which is why I never completed the broken dreams dungeon. Again, there obviously are challenging alternatives elsewhere.

[Ostheim]

Not touching anything else, but in regards to doing other, harder dungeons, it's about as Kerst has said. Most of those more 'interesting' dungeons that I haven't seen yet are far away from the 'hub' area, making them more of a time investment to get to. And, with what you've currently reported in regards to loot, likely not terribly worth the effort of going to. In such a situation, it's entirely natural for a player base to stick to what's convenient and close for them. Maybe some more modes of transport should be added to rectify this.

Cause, loot aside, there's a lot of ruins out there I probably haven't seen yet, and probably won't if it continues taking upwards fifteen or twenty minutes to even get there.

[Vogelens]

I agree some dungeons are not worth it when they take so long to get there, and back. There are solutions to that though, that could shift the focus some. Have more hubs exist. Right now Sarshel is superior in every way, though more caravans could help with this (Like the one from Vlasta to Sarshel. Making it two way is not neccesarily a bad thing). Merchants being even would also work, so people do not feel the need to return to Sarshel to sell, as they will pretty much every time. While I understand the reasoning behind why some merchants offer worse prices, while it works from an RP point of view, from a gaming point of view, it does not quite work and is the reason Sarshel is the main hub, and dungeons in it's vicinity are done more than those further away.

[Poisonous]

I have to disagree that making the server even easier through convenience is the way to go. My suggestion of keeping Magic items to mostly further away, riskier harder to grind dungeons solves the issue of the loot there not being good enough. It balances it so they're worth doing.

[Vogelens]

It is not making things easier through convenience, it is making the server more accessible. Having magic items drop in the faraway places does not solve the issue of people simply not being able to visit those faraway places due to time constraints, and would favour the ones who have more time and can more easily accomodate to spending a long time travelling to a far away place, too. (And having scouted it to find it).

This is merely what I have seen worked on several different servers, and across different games even. Multiple hubs promote spreading out, and people not staying close to what is known and familiar, and quick to reach with limited playtimes. There is some charm to a faraway town, that is hard to reach and worth an entire RP trip but... those places ultimately get a lot less foot traffic, players will not visit as often, and dungeons will not be done much or known at all. RP-wise it works great, but from a gaming point of view a bit less.

I also see the word "grind" used a lot here. I do not think people know what it means at all. Due to the cooldown system on dungeons, "grinding" is not really a thing here, at all. Unless you would go for look in dungeons every time they respawn, but then it is more farming, really.

[Ataraxia]

I have to disagree that making the server even easier through convenience is the way to go.

+1

IMO, streamlining adventuring, crafting, leveling or anything so it's more convenient is ridiculous in a persistent world server. The uniqueness of the server is partly because it's not like every two-bit roleplay server where systems are designed to be as MMOy as possible.

[Vogelens]

Note, this is NOT about making things "easier" or more MMO-like. My suggestion was one that would allow more hubs to be created, rather than one (that is not even that central really). So that the concern with some dungeons being overdone would be settled, and that more dungeons, including the harder ones, would be sought out, having that incentive with a hub to move from. It would make the server -harder- in a way, as people would be more willing and able to explore more, and further. Do unknown, harder dungeons, rather than the ones they have memorized.

Generally, it is MMOs that tend to have the 1 hub. Persistant worlds, that I have played on and seen had several, and this worked well. These were pure RP servers, some might have been considered more hardcore than TER too. Several hubs makes the world seem bigger, as well, when done right. Rather than being restricted to just one city. Even if one of the hubs is a village in the mountains or whatever, it adds to the larger scope of the world, and makes travelling more worthwhile, imo. Rather than simply returning to Sarshel to sell. When you are far out, it feels a bit ooc and imo can break immersion, where you can easily run/walk back to that one city that would be several days of travel away.

Honestly, I am fine with the one hub to move from, if that is what people wish and prefer. But, those who seem convinced that one hub is the way to go, should also not be the ones who offer complaints that people do not travel for hours to find a dungeon, and then back again for a long time. People are limited by real life, and a lot of people have limited windows of time to play in.

I noticed there are a LOT of miconceptions floating about, about a lot of things. And people are afraid of change, or even considering it, while not offering solutions, or offering a proper discussions about points brought up, themselves. Instead, some seem to be just defensive and shoot everything out of their comfort zone down.