Making money as a bard

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Ostheim
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Making money as a bard

Postby Ostheim » Fri May 20, 2016 10:14 pm

So right now doing dungeons is pretty much the best way to make money, which is, as far as I can tell, working as designed. That said, wouldn't it be nice if bards had a little more incentive to put on performances and get people to congregate at the local watering holes? It's a classic DND profession that rakes in more coin that most mundane jobs would, certainly, and I think it'd be great to reward the effort that most of our bardic players put into the descriptions of their performances. Definitely more so than the standard @work provides, which is, if you're lucky, 5 coppers or something for about a half-hour's worth of standing around, more if you're lucky enough to have people RPing near you.

Maybe something like @bardwork? Not sure what would be balanced, but most of the bards I've seen have been more at home entertaining people rather than doing dungeon runs. Feel free to spitball.
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Silver Snow
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Re: Making money as a bard

Postby Silver Snow » Fri May 20, 2016 11:03 pm

I do think it's an interesting idea, there are characters I just enjoy dungeoning on and thus wealth is a neat by-product of those, but my bard is one that it really doesn't fit and one that has rp that revolves around actually having wealth. I'm not too familiar with the regular @work command past the fact that it was far from worth me taking up my PC's processing power, but if it netted, say, a couple silver an hour that is still well below what average dungeons at that level give. Maybe it can be tied to a certain amount of perform rolls allowed a day, with the payoff being like 3x the roll in copper?

In general I am all for more ways for PCs to accrue wealth outside of killing monsters and taking their things, whether through IC relationships with NPCs (lords, merchants) or other means. I do know I tend to enjoy creating rp with my bard far more than dragging her useless self out on dungeons.

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Ataraxia
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Re: Making money as a bard

Postby Ataraxia » Sat May 21, 2016 12:54 am

In Star Wars Galaxies, the entertainer profession revolved around out-of-combat healing of accumulated wounds through music and dancing, and their coin was made by players giving them tips. The downside was that they were next to useless in a fight, it was mostly a social class. I am all for diversifying the means of finding coin so the focus can be less adventure-centric, but it should be made with a global scope in mind rather than a class-by-class view which gets us stuck patchworking the entire system for balance's sake.

Could always make a @tip command for convenience's sake. Or perhaps think of out-of-combat avenues for characters to make coin.. But everything that comes to mind can be done through RP and money exchanges between characters which don't really warrant a mechanical system. Really a good way to make coin is to capitalize on an RP skill your character might have, not necessarily something tied to the class they are. A bard could easily write commissioned songs or promote certain people's skills or fame for coin. Just have to be creative and give other characters something to work with in my opinion.

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Obsidian Sea
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Re: Making money as a bard

Postby Obsidian Sea » Sat May 21, 2016 1:51 pm

Perhaps Bards could have a separate function similar, combining the mechanics of rest spots and the @locate command? A command that is only usable at certain intervals, and in certain areas (every 1 hour, perhaps, in The Kingfisher, The Crowning Glory Inn, The Sailor's Star, The Drunk Carp, etc). The number of sardils produced from the performance could be (Performx3/circumstantial multipliers).

Circumstantial multipliers in this case would be like resting zone quality, where some places are more profitable than others. The taverns in Vlasta and Thelnam, for example, would be less profitable, whilst The Kingfisher and The Crowning Glory Inn are currently the most profitable thanks to the Bardic residencies there supporting the arts and audiences which are receptive to the arts?

This is an interesting thread; thanks for pitching!
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Kerstman
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Re: Making money as a bard

Postby Kerstman » Sat May 21, 2016 3:17 pm

I am much in agreement with Ataraxia on this. While I agree that it is interesting to have rp opportunities for moneymaking for certain classes, I believe that if a mechanical tool for it will be created it should be fairly equal across all classes and not aimed at just one or a few. The easier solution in my mind is to be creative. Just as wizards, rogues, priests or any other class can be when it comes to providing this or that service in exchance for a financial reward.
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Danuvis
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Re: Making money as a bard

Postby Danuvis » Sat May 21, 2016 3:25 pm

I honestly don't think creativity is lacking in the least among TER's resident bards, quite the contrary. The fact of the matter is that you'd have to rely solely on other players/DMd interactions for tips and payment, which aren't as common as dungeoneering, nor as readily available - and in the long run that is far from a steady source of income, which bards realistically would have, especially those who have taken up residence in well established inns/taverns. To that end, we do have a system in place for it, but one that could use a boost for bards in particular, in my opinion. After all, what bards do requires considerably more commitment and effort than, say, an adventuring soldier, and I think extra effort should warrant extra reward, as it generally seems to in TER.

Now, how one would execute and balance an economical boost is anyone's guess. Nothing springs to my mind, so I can't propose anything, though some of the suggestions already brought forth seem nice to me. It's an interesting thought, nonetheless, and maybe some more creative/more mechanically inclined minds might come up with cool and plausible ways to go about achieving this.

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Poisonous
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Re: Making money as a bard

Postby Poisonous » Sat May 21, 2016 7:23 pm

I guess I don't understand the appeal or feasibility of these suggestions myself. While I'd support greater @work bonuses for characters who have levels in the Commoner class, bards aren't just "musicians"--they're granted adventuring skills and have the ability to make use of them. If the player chooses to adventure less and bard more--great! I think DMs and players will inevitably take notice and support that character. I think that's already happened.

However, it doesn't make any sense to me that a bard should be able to make money without risk, unlike every other PC. Perhaps the @work system should be changed to allow for, say, one hour a week where more money can be made--but the idea of making silvers without risk rubs me the wrong way. There's no reason a player can't work with DMs to set up a business for themselves (as several of us have already done), should they wish to "retire". Or play for tips from other players (and ask DMs to support this a bit more).
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Silver Snow
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Re: Making money as a bard

Postby Silver Snow » Sat May 21, 2016 10:00 pm

I personally do not support any solution that involves adding more work to our two active DMs. The premise suggested here is an expansion on an existing command created to circumvent the necessity for DM involvement in mundane but expected things like a character being more than just an adventurer and having gainful employment. Bards, true and skilled ones, even while travelling tend to supplement their adventuring income well. Bards with permanent residencies are likely even better off as they get consistent access to increasingly loyal customers. For every hour my bard has spent dungeoning, for instance, she has spent ten hours entertaining and playing for paying customers.
Yes, I agree that it's very great and rewarding having NPCs work to give a character more opportunities for income but for them to stack up to equal what dungeoning yields they'll have to be either very extravagant or very numerous, neither of which is practical. I value that sort of interaction for the rp it creates, not the money. Also as far as I know, player businesses to date are more of a money sink than a money source, and dungeoning remains the only feasible way to make income.
The last point though is..what is money used on? For adventurers the three moneysinks I can think of are healing (raises, Restorations), magic/unique items for bidding, and housing. Speaking from just my experience, every Torntar I've made so far has gone straight to paying for greater restorations, either for myself or other players. I haven't seen magic items be lost because someone couldn't outbid someone else in-game, perhaps on the forums. What would a character that doesn't really dungeon spend money on? Not magic items, likely. Not healing, probably. Perhaps housing and a horse? Given that, is there some sort of unbalancing harm to a character having a means to make a couple balan or so per month of playtime if they aren't going to trivialize threats or take away opportunities from others?

Toros
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Re: Making money as a bard

Postby Toros » Sun May 22, 2016 1:28 am

I think that @work generally could use some love and solve some of these issues, but in my experience bards would earn significant tips if they were regularly performing at the same location which PCs could expect.

As far as I have seen, that has not happened and I wouldn't expect monetary gain for essentially offline RP.

I would enjoy if PCs could put a @work performance on and after 30 min get 3x perform skill coin, plus tips and with a gentle reminder to @rec, some xp as well.

What I don't want though is something that will provide significant passive income that can be combined with dungeons to simply make bards earn more with no additional risk.

Essentially, I'd like to see a system (perhaps @bardwork) that encouraged and rewarded bards putting on performances IC. The potential to make 5 silver from tips and 3x perform is very real for a bard willing to be regular. (1-2 silver is the max without tips)

This wouldn't need to prevent @work buffs, but I'd expect that a bard should rely on perform, not their highest stat, which means it is fundamentally different.
Danuvis wrote:After all, what bards do requires considerably more commitment and effort than, say, an adventuring soldier, and I think extra effort should warrant extra reward, as it generally seems to in TER.
I can think of no way in which it is reasonable to say that being an adventuring soldier requires less of a commitment or effort than a bard.

You're comparing someone who makes money killing vicious creatures and looting the bodies of fallen adventurers with someone who sits in a tavern singing and playing an instrument.

Failure in the first means death, failure in the second means less tips.
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Xanthas
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Re: Making money as a bard

Postby Xanthas » Sun May 22, 2016 1:34 am

Personally I’m against the idea of characters being able to make as much coin as they might adventuring or anything that could make a character wealthy from a system like @work. The amount it gives now seems low but reasonable to me and if there was an increase I think it should be for all classes rather than just the bard, there’s no reason the other classes can’t be equally skilled in a different profession than the bard or even in the same one as a musician if they have the perform skill to back it up.

I’m inclined to agree with Ataraxia that some PC to PC RP can help you get some more coin if you aren’t feeling wealthy enough not adventuring and using @work. Not every PC will want to pay a bard for some sort of work but some probably would if the idea was put out there by the bard and tips would likely come fairly readily for the playing bard if people felt there was a way to give them or reminded of it somehow.
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