1. D (Levels past 8 should give PCs a bonus feat.)
2. A (All E8 feats are available to everyone as long as prerequisites are met, similar to the level 1-8 rules.)
3. A (Level 1-8 feats should be available as E8 feat choices.)
4. C (It depends on the feat's type. For instance, passive bonuses should be capped but feats with more RP flavour than mechanical benefit should not count towards that.)
5. C (Yes, using an activity-based system for the cap.)
6. A (Yes, a fixed cost for the first feat keeps things user-friendly.)
7. A (Yes, a fixed cost for all individual feats keeps things user-friendly.)
This has been but a fraction of our players who have voted so far, though! There are so many more. Come on, good people. You'll make the difference and we're curious where this goes.
~ Copper
Plays: Artemis D'Assanthe, Dawnmaster Udhana, the Kinless Dhovainithil, Silver Elf Jhasira of the Bai Kabor, Dawnbringer (deceased)
1. D
2. B (These thematic feat trees should be class specific as well. My biggest concern with E8 is that it will smear the classes together and they'll lose a lot of their individual identity with the general availability of all feats)
3. C
4. B
5. C
6. A
7. A
Thanks to all for your contributions so far. What I gather from the replies is that most of you want to keep any E8 system as straightforward as possible, that is, a feat per level, with as much choice between as many feats of equal strength as possible, with no further XP caps or variable XP costs.
I am a bit unclear on how I should interpret the combination of 3A + 4C, because 3A suggests that all feats are viable choices while 4C suggests some are not. Is it mostly about a passive vs active bonus? It would help to have some examples of feats which belong in different categories here.
I think the next step is shaping these replies into a solid system. And though the majority vote (DAACAAA) is not necessarily the best choice, it is a good starting point.
Let's assume that every level 8 PC gets a bonus feat for every 20 average dungeon runs, with no time restrictions but with a maximum on the number of feats they can pick (with exceptions or separate maximums for certain feat types). There may be feats with level 8 in a class as prerequisite or ones locked behind short feat trees, but all feats are essentially fair game for all classes and so new feats should be roughly equal in power to existing level 1-8 feats.
What would be the weaknesses of such a system? Does it do justice to a feat-based class like the fighter, for example? What is an appropriate range for the feat maximum if we want to serve the interests of both old and new level 8 PCs? Will players still be able to pick a feat they're happy with if they're presented with a giant list of options?
Kerstman wrote:When discussing this I always wonder how the PrC's will work out and I do it again because I do not see it reflected in these 7 questions. Or am I overlooking something?
the simple method would be making each feat which the class normally grants available, with lower level feats working as prerequisite for higher level feats and with level-based effects becoming dependant on feat count instead. There are other options, too - I don't forsee PrC implementation becoming a major hurdle.
There may be feats with level 8 in a class as prerequisite or ones locked behind short feat trees, but all feats are essentially fair game for all classes and so new feats should be roughly equal in power to existing level 1-8 feats.
It is my understanding - and I write this on the public forum to invite players to agree or disagree - that this is a concept many players can get behind. The availability of such feats would, or should, aim to balance out and reward the full class PCs in the late game, whereas multiclass PCs often (but not always) reap their benefits earlier in their career.
~ Copper
Plays: Artemis D'Assanthe, Dawnmaster Udhana, the Kinless Dhovainithil, Silver Elf Jhasira of the Bai Kabor, Dawnbringer (deceased)
1.I'd like to see a level cap be at something where we can obtain the full array of abilities for Prestige Classes or maybe lower the Prestige Classes requirements, so we can customize our characters sooner.
2. I like the ideas of A, B and C. Just due to the fact that I can see people wanting a lot of different abilities, while some want to specialize their characters. It could be done as to where there are some single feats and then some other feats that require you to advance in taking the feat. Like Feat Levels (1,2,3 etc.) At that though, I wouldn't mind some feats or after E8 some abilities that would help with RP overall, like something that would help politically or with goals that may require DM attention.
3. A. Although this applies with the answer for 2 as well.
4. C.
5. A. We shouldn't be capping people with the cap that is already in game. It would limit those who aren't able to be on all the time or be on during active hours, thus unable to do a lot of activities.
6. B. I believe that there should be a progressive XP cost for these feats and abilities. To keep players from advancing so far that they become unstoppable to the rest of the community or the general difficulty of the server. Not to prevent people from progression, but to keep it paced.
7. B & C. Lessening costs for characters who are trained in those arts makes sense, but at the same time more RP related skills have to be able to be reinforced with RP or DM involvement.
Sorry I'm posting this after Loreweaver already asked his follow-ups, but here it is regardless.
Spoiler:
Hint: If you format your replies this way, everyone can easily and immediately see what your thoughts actually are, and the data collectors can use the second part for their polling info. I'd put the whole Long Answers part in a spoiler, but these forums don't like spoilerception.
Commentary within the Long Answers spoilers. Answers in bold.
A. Long Answers
1. Which would have your preference? a) Use normal NWN progression and raise the character level to a different maximum.
b) Don't raise the cap at all, level 8 is fine.
c) Levels past 8 should give PCs some extra skillpoints and HP but nothing else.
d) Levels past 8 should give PCs a bonus feat.
Option E:
Spoiler:
Do NOT use normal NWN progression; Raise the max to 12; raise the effective starting level to 3-6; set levels 6-9 as the majority of "experience time"; 10-12 legendarily long or via special circumstances/methods.
I'll keep my explanation short. A median level of 6-9 makes for a yet-low magic server with thoroughly distinguished characters and builds, while true legends provide the "magic" in a "low magic" setting, inevitably becoming NPC-like in their role, and probably attracting more and more dangerous fates to themselves the more ambitiously they grow. Catch my drift? Maybe the E8 system can emulate that somehow, without rebalancing the entire server. However, if you are going to rebalance the server based on this question, you better do it sooner than later.
This is a super unbelievably big topic and any further discussion would flood this thread, so, I think I'll start one for it, since AusGre is evidently of a similar mind:
AusGre wrote:1.I'd like to see a level cap be at something where we can obtain the full array of abilities for Prestige Classes or maybe lower the Prestige Classes requirements, so we can customize our characters sooner.
2. Assuming E8 happens, how would you see it organized? a) All E8 feats are available to everyone as long as prerequisites are met, similar to the level 1-8 rules.
b) E8 feats are organized into thematic feat trees, where you develop your character towards an archetype.
c) E8 feats are organized into categories (e.g. General, Combat, Skill) and the category you can choose from alternates for balanced progression.
d) Characters can choose from a limited, random selection of feats each time to keep options manageable.
3. Should level 1-8 feats be available as E8 feat choices?
a) Yes, the more options the better. b) No, E8 feats should have a different power level than standard feats. c) The available 1-8 feats should depend on the character's class(es). For instance, only classes with 6+ skillpoints can take Skill Focus as E8 feat, and only classes with full BAB progression can take Weapon Focus after level 8.
4. Should there be a hard cap on the number of E8 feats a character can take?
a) Yes, progression should be finite. b) No, the number of useful and characterful feats is the limiting factor.
c) It depends on the feat's type. For instance, passive bonuses should be capped but feats with more RP flavour than mechanical benefit should not count towards that.
But!
Spoiler:
I don't like a hard cap, but an effective, soft cap of diminishing returns, so you can -still- be accruing E8s, later on, but you're going to have to be smart about what you pick, because you might not ever see your sixth, or seventh, or fifteenth, or whatever E8 feat, because every E8 feat you get pushes the next one back further; alternatively, mix this system with "multiple directions of soft caps", so you might have a hard time further mastering (E8) swordsmanship, but you can pick up Cooking or Alchemy-related E8s, for example, like any growing novice of those crafts might. In that case, it might be best for the E8 system to be one that works all the way from level 1 up to 8, with a particular progression which presumably picks up a lot at level 8+.
5. Should there be a timed XP cap to slow progression past level 8? a) No, a cap adds nothing at this point.
b) Yes, using the age-based system already in place.
c) Yes, but using an activity-based system.
Indifferent:
Spoiler:
I answered No because I don't have a full idea as to how the timed XP cap should or could work into this system.
6. Should your character's first E8 feat cost the same amount of XP to unlock as your character's tenth?
a) Yes, a fixed cost keeps things user-friendly. b) No, each extra feat should cost more to slow down the rate of advancement.
c) No, the cost should be lower the further you are behind the PC with the most E8 feats, so that players can catch up to their power level.
Option E:
Spoiler:
I think an option E would be better. I don't even know what this option e would be, but that could be gleaned by thinking more about what I said in my But! comment. To remain consistent with my comments there, I would say the answer lies somewhere in between "B" and a multi-directional soft cap system.
7. Should all individual feats cost the same amount of XP to unlock?
a) Yes, a fixed cost keeps things user-friendly. b) Yes, but an exception should be made for some cases to preserve class identity (e.g. cheaper combat feats chosen by fighters, skill feats for rogues and metamagic feats for wizards). c) No, a feat's XP cost should depend on the PC's class, the feat's category, its power and all manner of like factors (e.g. half price for RP feats).
