I have to agree with Toros, here. I've been playing on this server for close to a year (though some of you may only know me from about 6~ months ago), and I've not ever been corpsed, mainly because I usually know my limits. TER requires you to play smart and cautious, even when you're a level 8 thinking that you have the dungeon on lock - you might not, and you will regret the day you've thought so.
As for the idea for a sled, I think that would be fantastic. Making it so you are locked out of attacking in that mode would be more balanced, I think, but otherwise it is a great suggestion.
Raise Dead - Scaling Costs (and Corpse Weight)
Re: Raise Dead - Costs and Corpse Weight
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Silver Snow
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Re: Raise Dead - Costs and Corpse Weight
Personally, I think what this change would serve is a population that is inherently underserved. There are plenty of people that come onto the server in ones and twos and threes, try it, not know anything about the server, and die. These often are in the NA timezone so usually without DM support, usually don't get to make higher level friends, and a death for them is crippling. I can say that I have a pretty well supported level 3 fighter sort now that hasn't gotten above 5 silver of personal wealth despite having full plate and not having to tank, and I very well know the server. Getting a balan is hard, having friends to help raise you isn't guaranteed, travelling with higher levels to rewarding dungeons at level 1-2 is not guaranteed.
I wouldn't say that it isn't an issue just because many of us haven't experienced it as one. I can point to a lot of gravestones for people that did have this issue, and recall a lot of accounts I've only seen here until they died and couldn't be raised. I think in general it's quite a fallacy to say "I haven't had this problem, it must not be a problem;" it's quite rampant in the suggestions topic as a whole, and the fact that there are suggestions for things like this and supporters for it does mean that plenty do consider it a problem. If it helps a population of people to implement it, and does not in any way impact the performance of anyone else, it seems it'd be a pretty fair thing to do.
A compromise could at least a lowering of the carry weight of corpses. I have yet to hear an argument for not doing this that doesn't amount to status quo, there's practically no way to abuse it, and it's the simplest and most elegant solution to a problem that a lot of people have.
I wouldn't say that it isn't an issue just because many of us haven't experienced it as one. I can point to a lot of gravestones for people that did have this issue, and recall a lot of accounts I've only seen here until they died and couldn't be raised. I think in general it's quite a fallacy to say "I haven't had this problem, it must not be a problem;" it's quite rampant in the suggestions topic as a whole, and the fact that there are suggestions for things like this and supporters for it does mean that plenty do consider it a problem. If it helps a population of people to implement it, and does not in any way impact the performance of anyone else, it seems it'd be a pretty fair thing to do.
A compromise could at least a lowering of the carry weight of corpses. I have yet to hear an argument for not doing this that doesn't amount to status quo, there's practically no way to abuse it, and it's the simplest and most elegant solution to a problem that a lot of people have.
Re: Raise Dead - Costs and Corpse Weight
There is a slight difference between caution and some of the stuff I've witnessed in my time here on TER.
I have been playing here since the start of the year now. One recurring theme has been that (most) players just outright stop playing (take a break from the game) the moment their respawn is on cooldown. I have also witnessed dungeon groups fleeing at the tiniest hints of opposition or moving at an absolute snail's pace, where their party members are literally standing still for 10 minutes after every 10 steps taken. These are not even the extreme or uncommon examples.
I'm all for tension and caution, but the current systems are kind of hurting or stifling the gameplay experience.
Not everyone is a hardcore D&D player or has loads of NWN experience or has a full party of friends to call upon.
I have been playing here since the start of the year now. One recurring theme has been that (most) players just outright stop playing (take a break from the game) the moment their respawn is on cooldown. I have also witnessed dungeon groups fleeing at the tiniest hints of opposition or moving at an absolute snail's pace, where their party members are literally standing still for 10 minutes after every 10 steps taken. These are not even the extreme or uncommon examples.
I'm all for tension and caution, but the current systems are kind of hurting or stifling the gameplay experience.
Not everyone is a hardcore D&D player or has loads of NWN experience or has a full party of friends to call upon.
Re: Raise Dead - Costs and Corpse Weight
I have not experienced any of that, in an equal amount of time spent playing. I understand where you are coming from, but I simply do not agree with it or think changes are necessary. Though, players stopping to play because of their respawn being on cooldown is their own prerogative. Nothing stops them from staying on and roleplaying for that time.
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Re: Raise Dead - Costs and Corpse Weight
I do have to say, a member of the staff saying "I have not seen this happen. So there is no problem." comes across as not really taking the problems/issues players raise seriously. People would not bring this up if there was no problem. Player retention is really bad on TER, the player base is small despite spiking up at times because people join, hit the brickwall that is some newbie-unfriendly mechanics and leavcce. It is easy to say "Oh, that is on them for leaving." but it is not really an attitude you want to have in a game with a very small community in general as it is, unless you prefer to keep the playerbase on TER small, rather than try and have it grow.
Keep in mind, many of the people who do not see the problem are the elite, those who know the game, those who know the server. For many new players this is not the case. There is a problem somewhere, why else would so many players leave after just a brief visit? Veterans of the server also fall under the leaving category, there are reasons for this. Perhaps not all related to this issue, maybe it is only a small percentage that is related to this. But I do not think it is something to ignore, and being outright told it is not an issue kind of comes across as the staff being a bit uncaring towards the playerbase.
My two cents on this
Keep in mind, many of the people who do not see the problem are the elite, those who know the game, those who know the server. For many new players this is not the case. There is a problem somewhere, why else would so many players leave after just a brief visit? Veterans of the server also fall under the leaving category, there are reasons for this. Perhaps not all related to this issue, maybe it is only a small percentage that is related to this. But I do not think it is something to ignore, and being outright told it is not an issue kind of comes across as the staff being a bit uncaring towards the playerbase.
My two cents on this
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Kara Farrowwood ~ Druidess of Silvanus
Kara Farrowwood ~ Druidess of Silvanus
Re: Raise Dead - Costs and Corpse Weight
OK - I may have come off as harsh. I do understand that this is an issue for some people, though the snail's pace caution is the thing I referred to as not witnessing.
Even when I was a new player, I took to caution, for myself, and I went along just fine. TER has become, and honestly, was always, a niche. Some people are bound to be driven away from it, and you all seem to want to pass it off as being a major issue that plagues the server.
I do not see it as such, not now, not when I was just a player. That is my view. Others agree, as is evident in this thread.
Again, apologies for seeming uncaring, but I legitimately do not see this as an issue. You have your two cents, I have mine.
Edit: Not to mention there is a very convenient safety net for new players.
Even when I was a new player, I took to caution, for myself, and I went along just fine. TER has become, and honestly, was always, a niche. Some people are bound to be driven away from it, and you all seem to want to pass it off as being a major issue that plagues the server.
I do not see it as such, not now, not when I was just a player. That is my view. Others agree, as is evident in this thread.
Again, apologies for seeming uncaring, but I legitimately do not see this as an issue. You have your two cents, I have mine.
Edit: Not to mention there is a very convenient safety net for new players.
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Loreweaver
- Administrator & Builder
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Re: Raise Dead - Costs and Corpse Weight
I can only reiterate what I've said before; nothing in the data indicates that Revive costs are too high, nor that corpses are too heavy to bring to a temple. The bottom line is that only a marginal number of player departures can be linked to an unrevived PC, and the vast majority of PCs who die are subsequently revived. There will always be unfortunate cases, but this aspect of the death system is working as well as we can hope for.
Re: Raise Dead - Costs and Corpse Weight
I find the death mechanic here very gentle. The servers I played ion previously required stones found in high stakes dungeons and they were a random drop at that and based on character alignment. So where I am used to walking away from a a character due to death I am also super careful. As far as costs are concerned *excluding Amberdrake* one I got level 2 and began understanding my limits Ivan able to make anywhere between 150 to 250 sardil evening, with very limited chance of death. As I travel ans learn of new dungeons that number only increases.
And though it was a very slow process, my Kathaleen a handling with a 12 str was able to drag, yet super slow, the body of leira from the coast back to Garmin. The decision to toss loot and heavy stuff I can go back for is a choice any of my characters of goodly nature would make.
The sled idea is neat though but I would say some way of restricting to carry corpses. A large portion of str score is carry capacity. If I can item dump or dungeon loot after clearing the dungeon the sled would remove the penalty for having sub par str.
Please forgive any spelling or auto correct errors. This message was entered on Phone.
And though it was a very slow process, my Kathaleen a handling with a 12 str was able to drag, yet super slow, the body of leira from the coast back to Garmin. The decision to toss loot and heavy stuff I can go back for is a choice any of my characters of goodly nature would make.
The sled idea is neat though but I would say some way of restricting to carry corpses. A large portion of str score is carry capacity. If I can item dump or dungeon loot after clearing the dungeon the sled would remove the penalty for having sub par str.
Please forgive any spelling or auto correct errors. This message was entered on Phone.
Re: Raise Dead - Costs and Corpse Weight
I strongly agree with Dawnbreak about TER being niche, and I believe that is by design.
There are two approaches to the server that I believe are successful and satisfying for players.
-The first is that they build how they wish, play how they wish, without worrying about mechanical strength or having to avoid going to the most dangerous places. In exchange, they appear to be comfortable with not being able to go toe to toe with the most dangerous enemies. Kind of an "everyman adventurer." With the way scaling works, many fights won't be trivial even against mid level content, which helps keep things exciting.
-The second is that people make characters who have a higher degree of mechanical strength, or use preparation and tactics to allow them to take on more dangerous challenges. Inconsistent application of this tactic make it very easy to die, as scaling keeps dangerous enemies quite dangerous, and doing something like triggering a half dozen AoO, or not being in improved expertise, can very quickly become fatal. Being prepared and using tactics vs low or mid level enemies gives a sense of progression as they usually aren't dangerous at that point if prepared and using good tactics. This is generally the best approach if feeling like a badass is important to you.
Unlike in most games, on TER you never get to the point where you outscale all the enemies to the point where they're just wasted space until the boss, or to the point where you're strong enough you can rush through hard content without risk. I believe the goal and design was to keep a sense of things being dangerous at every level, and to my knowledge there is still at least one dungeon that has never been completed at mid or high level (if memory serves, at low level the enemies scaled so low that it wasn't much of a challenge, which may no longer be the case).
Where I think people become disappointed is when they want to be able to take a more casual approach to dungeons but also feel like a badass taking on hard content, or being able to just rush in and steamroll harder content.
There are dozens of ways to simply make the server easier, but I think that would likely remove any risk of failure. A level 8 can still die soloing, same as a level 2. Difference is that a level 2 can respawn every 2 days, and the level 8 has to wait 32.
In my experience the people who join the server, die, and never come back ignored PM invites to RP or do things together. Most of the time higher levels are more than happy to help with a raise for a lowbie who they've met on good terms. Disagreeable characters or antisocial players don't get the same benefit, but that's kind of the point of a roleplaying server.
There are two approaches to the server that I believe are successful and satisfying for players.
-The first is that they build how they wish, play how they wish, without worrying about mechanical strength or having to avoid going to the most dangerous places. In exchange, they appear to be comfortable with not being able to go toe to toe with the most dangerous enemies. Kind of an "everyman adventurer." With the way scaling works, many fights won't be trivial even against mid level content, which helps keep things exciting.
-The second is that people make characters who have a higher degree of mechanical strength, or use preparation and tactics to allow them to take on more dangerous challenges. Inconsistent application of this tactic make it very easy to die, as scaling keeps dangerous enemies quite dangerous, and doing something like triggering a half dozen AoO, or not being in improved expertise, can very quickly become fatal. Being prepared and using tactics vs low or mid level enemies gives a sense of progression as they usually aren't dangerous at that point if prepared and using good tactics. This is generally the best approach if feeling like a badass is important to you.
Unlike in most games, on TER you never get to the point where you outscale all the enemies to the point where they're just wasted space until the boss, or to the point where you're strong enough you can rush through hard content without risk. I believe the goal and design was to keep a sense of things being dangerous at every level, and to my knowledge there is still at least one dungeon that has never been completed at mid or high level (if memory serves, at low level the enemies scaled so low that it wasn't much of a challenge, which may no longer be the case).
Where I think people become disappointed is when they want to be able to take a more casual approach to dungeons but also feel like a badass taking on hard content, or being able to just rush in and steamroll harder content.
There are dozens of ways to simply make the server easier, but I think that would likely remove any risk of failure. A level 8 can still die soloing, same as a level 2. Difference is that a level 2 can respawn every 2 days, and the level 8 has to wait 32.
In my experience the people who join the server, die, and never come back ignored PM invites to RP or do things together. Most of the time higher levels are more than happy to help with a raise for a lowbie who they've met on good terms. Disagreeable characters or antisocial players don't get the same benefit, but that's kind of the point of a roleplaying server.
Also, I play Galondel.
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Loreweaver
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Re: Raise Dead - Costs and Corpse Weight
As far as corpse weight goes, if it's over 210 lbs it's a bug and should be posted on the bug forum.
With regards to prohibitive Revive costs, it's worth noting that no one who's posting in this thread currently has a dead PC with the exception of one which died while soloing, rendering revive costs and carrying capacity secondary challenges in the revival process. But most of us have had dead PCs before, which means we've only had experiences where our characters were restored for the price of a balan.
We can make arguments on behalf of others, but as mentioned, there haven't really been a lot of others. We can see that for at least 95% of PCs and players, neither the costs of a Revive spell nor the corpse weight have proven impossible obstacles. The actual percentages are almost certainly higher, but we can't determine that exactly because we can't reliably poll players when they quit.
You could say that every lost player is one too many, but there will always be some who find the costs too high or too low, so I at least consider those margins acceptable.
I suggest discussion on attribute loss is moved to the other thread Feronius linked to. I'll transfer the existing posts shortly.
With regards to prohibitive Revive costs, it's worth noting that no one who's posting in this thread currently has a dead PC with the exception of one which died while soloing, rendering revive costs and carrying capacity secondary challenges in the revival process. But most of us have had dead PCs before, which means we've only had experiences where our characters were restored for the price of a balan.
We can make arguments on behalf of others, but as mentioned, there haven't really been a lot of others. We can see that for at least 95% of PCs and players, neither the costs of a Revive spell nor the corpse weight have proven impossible obstacles. The actual percentages are almost certainly higher, but we can't determine that exactly because we can't reliably poll players when they quit.
You could say that every lost player is one too many, but there will always be some who find the costs too high or too low, so I at least consider those margins acceptable.
I suggest discussion on attribute loss is moved to the other thread Feronius linked to. I'll transfer the existing posts shortly.
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