Re-work paladins at higher levels.

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Ostheim
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Re-work paladins at higher levels.

Postby Ostheim » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:32 pm

Quick and dirty post, but I've noticed that paladins get progressively less tempting to play the further you go through their levels. The spells are nice, granted, but there's precious few of them to make up for the currently lack-luster class features that they get. Namely, a whole lot of nothing at 8 (level 1 spell slot, wheee), a bugged horse at 6 that doesn't actually work properly, and divine health, which is almost a non-issue because a paladin can just heal away their disease at any time anyway.

Paladins currently benefit the most from multi-classing, either into fighter after a certain point for more feats, or a PRC. Again, while the spells are nice, I at the present see little benefit in playing a pure paladin, which is a shame. Any class you take to the absolute limit should get a reward somehow, I feel, and the big 'nada' at 8 is odd for a class that relies so heavily on class features to make them stand out from the bog standard fighter or barbarian.

I know there aren't a whole lot of ideas to derive from either 3.5 source material or NWN entirely, but perhaps we can brain storm a bit and see if people agree that they could use something (at least at 8) extra, and what that might be.

I was thinking at 8, perhaps a bonus feat or a new spell-like ability of sorts that doesn't require a spell slot. Or the chance to choose, if it hasn't been already, Divine Shield, Divine Might, or Great Smiting (though I'd argue that this would make a finer benefit at level 6 or 4, rather than at the end of their 'career' so to speak).
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Silver Snow
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Re: Re-work paladins at higher levels.

Postby Silver Snow » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:49 pm

I've had similar thoughts, actually, about how the progression of paladins seemed to dwindle. Many other classes at 8 get something quite rewarding, whether it's a bonus feat or something else (Rogues get one, fighters get to take Imp Crit, Druids get Tier 3 forms..etc). While the intent may have been to give incentive to the paladins to dip into Divine Champion/Triadic Knight, I think that's catering to a small selection of potential paladins.
I think a paladin bonus feat at level 8 could be great, letting the paladin select from paladin feats that might fit one of their archetypes best like Divine Shield, Divine Might, Extra Smiting, Great Smite, Extra Turning, etc. Perhaps that and another level 2 spell, to let them be able to viably use something like Aura of Glory when it's needed (Mostly the same bonuses as Eagle's Splendor but with a one combat duration, rarely would it see use without the paladin knowing they'll get an Eagle's from somewhere else.) Paladins are certainly a strong class, but Ost makes a good point in that its higher level abilities seem to be broken (horse) or redundant and/or legacy (disease immunity, with all their high fort and remove disease).

Toros
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Re: Re-work paladins at higher levels.

Postby Toros » Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:22 pm

I somewhat understand why they don't get a capstone currently, as lay on hands, smite, turn undead (though still questionably useful except for fueling divine shield/might) continue to scale.

Going from 5x5 to 8x5 lay on hands healing is pretty significant, and 3 more smite attacks is essentially the extra smiting feat rolled in.

1-5 is pretty obviously good, and the internal scaling of paladin from 5-7 is nice. But a single level dip instead of 8 levels of paladin is generally more interesting and as good or better mechanically, which would be helped by a capstone feat.
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Silver Snow
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Re: Re-work paladins at higher levels.

Postby Silver Snow » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:52 pm

I wouldn't say internal scaling is much of an issue or a thing to point out. Every class that has any casting ability gets something similar. Spells have longer durations, better effects, animal companions get stronger. The capstone feat does seem to be the neatest solution, as it mirrors what a lot of other classes get, and might be one focused on the paladin part of it. I think it's especially fair given how broken horses are.

Loreweaver
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Re: Re-work paladins at higher levels.

Postby Loreweaver » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:13 pm

Ostheim wrote:Quick and dirty post, but I've noticed that paladins get progressively less tempting to play the further you go through their levels. The spells are nice, granted, but there's precious few of them to make up for the currently lack-luster class features that they get. Namely, a whole lot of nothing at 8 (level 1 spell slot, wheee), a bugged horse at 6 that doesn't actually work properly, and divine health, which is almost a non-issue because a paladin can just heal away their disease at any time anyway.
The level 1 spell slot may not seem like much, but between level 7 and 8 the paladin effectively increases the duration of their weapon buffs by 50%. For Deafening Clang (+1 ab, +3 sonic damage, OnHit:Deafness), you go from 10.5 minutes to 16 minutes, which is not insignificant. In comparison, a barbarian's capstone may get them +2 ab and +2 physical damage for just 15 rounds. Both classes gain additional benefits of course, but in terms of damage potential, level 8's a better deal for the paladin.
Ostheim wrote:Paladins currently benefit the most from multi-classing, either into fighter after a certain point for more feats, or a PRC. Again, while the spells are nice, I at the present see little benefit in playing a pure paladin, which is a shame. Any class you take to the absolute limit should get a reward somehow, I feel, and the big 'nada' at 8 is odd for a class that relies so heavily on class features to make them stand out from the bog standard fighter or barbarian.
I agree that the class doesn't have an obvious peak, and that may well make multiclassing more tempting. I do think that the benefits of multiclassing a paladin are smaller than those of multiclassing many others, including several classes with capstones. This wasn't always the case of course - the standard NWN paladin was very much front-loaded; unless you planned to go all out, three levels were more than enough. But as Toros indicates, the class has several abilities which scale with level, so while their high level plan doesn't look that exciting, things do happen.
Silver Snow wrote:I wouldn't say internal scaling is much of an issue or a thing to point out. Every class that has any casting ability gets something similar. Spells have longer durations, better effects, animal companions get stronger. The capstone feat does seem to be the neatest solution, as it mirrors what a lot of other classes get, and might be one focused on the paladin part of it. I think it's especially fair given how broken horses are.
Classes with casting ability are not the main comparison for a paladin however. While a paladin has access to some spells, their focus lies on increasing AB, damage and CHA in various ways, and the paladin's closest cousins are the warrior classes. Of those classes, I mention the barbarian above; I think the fighter with Improved Critical (roughly equivalent to a permanent +1 ab) is also worse off than the paladin, particularly if you consider nothing much happens at their 7th level either. The ranger may benefit most of all, especially when fighting their favoured foes, but the paladin takes good strides in catching up with, or outperforming, the others.
Ostheim wrote:I know there aren't a whole lot of ideas to derive from either 3.5 source material or NWN entirely, but perhaps we can brain storm a bit and see if people agree that they could use something (at least at 8) extra, and what that might be.

I was thinking at 8, perhaps a bonus feat or a new spell-like ability of sorts that doesn't require a spell slot. Or the chance to choose, if it hasn't been already, Divine Shield, Divine Might, or Great Smiting (though I'd argue that this would make a finer benefit at level 6 or 4, rather than at the end of their 'career' so to speak).
The paladin is a warrior class which specializes in fighting evil (particularly evil undead) and in resisting supernatural (or magical) effects. This means they have some extra powers which don't relate directly to fighting, and some powers which situationally improve the class' performance. Compared to a fighter, that translates to fewer combat feats and reduced combat potential overall (in large part accomplished by making the paladin depend on non-physical attributes as well as physical ones).
We should be very careful therefore about granting bonus feats which improve combat ability against a wide range of enemies and/or reduce the impact of spreading out the attributes if we want to maintain a healthy balance between the classes. A dip into Triadic Knight or Fighter is a good way of obtaining extra combat feats at the expense of other abilities, but I think any capstone feat integrated into the paladin class itself would have to be found in the effect resisting category rather than the fighting category.

It is true that the bugs related to the mount system prevent the paladin from getting the full strength we intended for the class so it may seem there's room for something else. But the mount system affects more than the paladin class alone, and it would be preferable to spend time on fixing the system rather than on helping the paladin ignore it. It's also not so critical to the function of the class that it renders them unable to compete with the other warrior classes, so a replacement is not deemed urgent. It's an unfortunate situation, but as we intend to fix it somewhere down the line and would like to see paladins enjoy their bonded mounts then, it cannot be a basis for a systematic power boost now.

Ostheim
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Re: Re-work paladins at higher levels.

Postby Ostheim » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:22 pm

I'm a little confused about your math (Deaf.Clang is 5 rounds per level...) and assessment of improved criticals (far, far more potent than a mere +1 to AB), but I think the idea of a capstone feat that has to do more with a paladin's ability to ward off effects would be a pretty neat idea. Maybe a choice of saves feats, such as Iron Will, Lightening Reflexes or Great Fortitude, or even the ability to choose Luck of Heroes at that point.
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Loreweaver
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Re: Re-work paladins at higher levels.

Postby Loreweaver » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:44 pm

At level 7, the spell lasts 35 rounds and a paladin with WIS 12-19 can cast the spell three times a day for a total of 105 rounds. At level 8, the spell lasts 40 rounds and the same paladin can cast it four times a day for a total of 160 rounds.

Improved Critical (with a scimitar or the like) is preferable to a +1 AB bonus if you need (roughly) 10 or less to hit on your main attack, but inferior if you need 11 or more to hit. As many monsters have a fairly low AC and partymembers can raise your AB, fighters who don't often swap between weapons will usually be better off with Improved Critical, although it's only in the lowest ranges of the to hit roll that the effect becomes pronounced (up to a difference of about +2 damage per round at 2+ to hit).

Vogelens
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Re: Re-work paladins at higher levels.

Postby Vogelens » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:25 pm

That is not really how math works. At all. :P It is a situational situation manifactured to justify the argument, not really supported by actual math. I can come up with examples that show different math but that is entirely pointless as it is based around one situation out of many, that is not even likely nor realistic. In this case, preparing just 4 Deafening Clangs is hardly the best use of the spellist. And comparing keen with a +1 AB bonus does not fly due to the different threat-ranges for weapons as well as many enemies immune to critical hits. The main one undead, which is as stated above one of the main enemies a paladin can tackle.

That said, I do not entirely disagree that paladins need that buff. They are stronger than many other classes still like monk, ranger or bard. It can be argued they might even be more potent than barbarians here on TER. They do make it more appealing to multiclass and I do think paladins here benefit more out of it after getting those first 4 or 5 levels, but do get the tools to be competetive as a pure class.

Essentially I do not disagree with Loreweaver with the claim that paladins are fine at high level, but the arguments used to try and prove this are really flawed, and not really properly backed by math (The situation is created to make the initial claims of math viable)
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Loreweaver
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Re: Re-work paladins at higher levels.

Postby Loreweaver » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:13 pm

While it's true that there are different threat ranges, the benefits of Improved Critical are greatest for the one I chose. And while it's true that certain enemies are immune to critical hits, this does not promote the strength of Improved Critical over Weapon Expertise. I believe I've used favourable but realistic conditions for a level 8 Improved Critical fighter which lead me to conclude it's not far, far more potent than the same fighter with +1 AB instead, but of course you needn't take my word for it. Draw your own graphs and find out.

As for the Deafening Clangs, of course it's only one example of the benefits of the extra spell slot. You may want to select different spells to prepare for unexpected situations, or you may want to use spells you can combine for a single power spike rather than a sustained bonus. Then again, you may want to give all your partymembers Deafening Clang for that one big battle. But use your own math, however that works for you, and decide for yourself.

I would like it if we could have a proper discussion rather than a dismissal which seems unsubstantiated to me. There are certainly a lot of variables in the game and the players, which makes it almost impossible to describe a standard situation, but I like to think that I have a decent idea of the way TER works. As such I'm happy to explain where I come from. Perhaps you believe me mistaken, but unless you can convince me of that I'm going to think you're wrong instead and will soon leave you to your misconceptions. And that would be a shame, because I wouldn't then support a justified improvement to the module.

Vogelens
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Re: Re-work paladins at higher levels.

Postby Vogelens » Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:48 pm

LW, as I mentioned in my post I did not say you were wrong. At the core, I do not believe you to be wrong about paladins. But, you were not right either with your example. You used a poor example in my opinion to defend your point of view, a very situational example of math that described something that was not related nor relevant. While you know how TER works, that does not mean you automatically know how each player plays their class, or prepares their spells.

Your math was not wrong for those specific situations but they were just that, specific, unrelated situations. If you do not agree, and think I am wrong, that these are the penultimate situations for every high level paladin... well good for you.

Though if you think I am wrong about paladins then... you think you yourself are wrong too. I -did- agree with you on the paladin's strength and power after all. :P

With that I will drop out of this topic though, it is kind of pointless to argue about this, I feel it would turn into an argument for the sake of argueing. I would not mind holding a proper discussion about the situational math and all other variables (Not that I would enjoy it either, DnD debates are never fun :P) but that would be best done elsewhere as it drifts away from paladins and the original post's concerns at this point.
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