Prestige Classes

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Khaela Mensha Khaine
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Prestige Classes

Postby Khaela Mensha Khaine » Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:32 pm

This is an idea I had today, not something I've really done any maths on nor have I thought about it too in-depth, but I thought it was good enough to bring up regardless.

I've noticed a couple of comments about how prestige classes are a bit awkward right now as they have feats built without an E8 system in mind; since that is now what is being strongly considered as the way the server is going, rather than re-thinking all of these feats and whatnot, why not make it so that all the prestige classes are possible to be taken after level 2, rather than 4 or 5. This will make it so that people can draw the most from the classes, as currently there are things implemented that are never going to see the light of day for these prestige classes, things which really add a lot of flavour to characters both ICly and mechanically.

Further benefit from this is that people can invest at least one level into the prestige class they're aiming for without having to wait for a month or four of XP capping, and from the perspective of their overall character plan, this may make for more interesting story progression for those who already have plans to incorporate their prestige class into their character's story.

There's probably a few kinks to iron out in this plan, and this post is mostly just to gather everyone's thoughts on doing something like this, maybe get a discussion going on the pros/cons.

For me, the thing that I can't really figure in is how these prestige classes will affect the difficulty of the server. Some feats may have to be toned down or even removed but, on the whole, I think most things could be kept in from what I've read. The thing I've been thinking about prestige classes is that the abilities themselves can lead to all kinds of new IC archetypes and enhance peoples characters in ways that baseline classes can't quite manage.

A Sword Leader, for example, gives characters the opportunity to better portray someone who may have taken more of a leading role in an army. Someone might want to aim for Witch Hunter but they may not want to explore that avenue after they've been around the server for a while, figuring it more into their background than something they explored since entering Impiltur.

It may also give character classes who struggle a bit in the earlier levels a little bit more of a boost once they hit 3; such as those who wear light armour and wield two-handers, who could invest in Weapon Master and feel a little more useful, or if said two-handed wielder is a Barbarian they could start investing into Skincarver, even.

From what I've seen, some of the feats are pretty strong. What immediately springs to mind is the Witch Hunters immunity to cantrips and first level spells. As I say, some feats like that may need to be toned down to accomodate this. Another thing that may have to be implemented to make this work is an application system for prestige classes similar to the evil and divine applications but all-in-all I think this is something worth considering.

Thoughts?

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Re: Prestige Classes

Postby Kerstman » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:46 am

It may not be ideal to have PrC's drop their base classes at a lower lever since that will leave some possible essential traits out of the intended multiclass build all the same. I play a Sorceror / Spirit Caller. She would feel much less like a spirit caller if she will not have her level 2 sorc spells. A druid / shifter with less wildshape abilities or less spells will feel the same.

It is a good point raised and PrC prgoress is my main concern about the E8 system. I see only two viable options. The first is that all intended PrC abilities should be given before PCs are capped at level 8. The downside to this is that they get a lot more goofy stuff than most other chars get in a few levels. The second option is to allow PrC specific progress in E8. Which means that only said PrC can select specific feats in E8 that fit the prestige class. These feats should not be accessible for other classes. Unless there are feats that are shared between PC's and PrC's alike. This would negate the 'free access' choice for E8 feats, which may be a downside for some but is not for me. I am not sure what the DM team decision is on the accessibility of E8 feats, though.
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Re: Prestige Classes

Postby Vogelens » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:26 am

Kerstman wrote:It may not be ideal to have PrC's drop their base classes at a lower lever since that will leave some possible essential traits out of the intended multiclass build all the same. I play a Sorceror / Spirit Caller. She would feel much less like a spirit caller if she will not have her level 2 sorc spells. A druid / shifter with less wildshape abilities or less spells will feel the same.
But would this not be like any other multiclassing as well? A fighter 7 and cleric 1 may not feel as much as a cleric with that one level, and a ranger 2/ rogue 6 may not feel as much as a ranger. It would be a choice to pick the prestige classes sooner, but not mandatory. It would be up to the player to divide the levels, merely providing the option rather than forcing you to take it. Some may focus more on certain aspects of the class, while others may be more general in their approach. It could lead to diversity in RP as well perhaps.
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Re: Prestige Classes

Postby Feronius » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:47 am

You're talking about a complete rework of the classes based on a system that may or may not be implemented (I personally hope it won't be) and of which nothing is set in stone or known yet. I have no idea what to think, at this point it would mostly be speculation.

What I will agree on is that a few Prestige Classes could use some more love, regardless of what level you gain access to them.
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Re: Prestige Classes

Postby Khaela Mensha Khaine » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:56 pm

Feronius wrote:You're talking about a complete rework of the classes
Yes and no; as I said in the OP, it would require things to be changed but only in terms of toning down how strong they are and possibly removing some things which may be a little OTT. Right now, as I see it, these prestige classes gain some fairly powerful feats every level for 5-6 levels (if it were possible to reach those levels). Most baseline classes don't get that, which technically makes all prestige classes far more attractive if you want to make a mechanically strong character, which is less incentive to pick something for character/RP reasons. Currently, you can only take 2-4 levels in these classes anyway, but you still get a feat every level - some of which are very powerful.

Some of the feats could be removed while others are toned down. For example, taking the Witch Hunter: the way it currently works is you're getting a feat every level, all of which are quite powerful, with the capstone feat (Deflect Magic II) giving you immunity to level 2 spells, which is - with an E8 system - really very powerful. However, the very attainable feat currently in existence, Deflect Magic I, is extremely powerful in of itself. So, rather than that, feat progression could go something like:

Level 1: Prepare Bolt, Craft Witch Hunter Trap
Level 2: Alchemy
Level 3: None
Level 4: Death Attack
Level 5: None
Level 6: Deflect Magic I

Or something like that. If you've only got 2 levels of your base class then level 4 would also come with a bonus feat as that would be level 6. This, to me, looks more in line with base classes and looks a little more like regular class progression. You're not losing anything from it but Deflect Magic II which is really pretty damn strong, but at the same time you'll feel like you've fully invested in that prestige class and been rewarded for it. Obviously the feat order could be re-jigged based on what the DMs feel is more powerful at early levels but you get the idea.

So no, I wouldn't call this a complete rework, more like a re-ordering and toning down of things so that prestige classes don't feel so powerful but feel more like flavour classes to better define your character's background. This may go completely in the opposite direction of what the design team have in mind for these classes, but I think this is worth throwing out and seeing what they think - because I feel like this kind of rework is a lot less work overall than some other overhauls that I've seen suggested.

In terms of requirements, most classes just need to have the minimum AB and minimum skill level lowered - so, again, very minor changes for the design team to make.
Feronius wrote:based on a system that may or may not be implemented (I personally hope it won't be) and of which nothing is set in stone or known yet.
Mhm, which is pretty much what I said in the opening of my post. This really is just open for people to discuss thoughts on the idea with the E8 system in mind as well as other general thoughts about the state of prestige classes as it stands.
Kerstman wrote:It may not be ideal to have PrC's drop their base classes at a lower lever since that will leave some possible essential traits out of the intended multiclass build all the same.

...I see only two viable options...
...The first is that all intended PrC abilities should be given before PCs are capped at level 8...
...The second option is to allow PrC specific progress in E8...
Yep, but as Vogelens said, this is something you'd have to do with any multiclass build. If you were planning to go Wizard/Fighter or Rogue/Barbarian, you're going to be missing out of a lot in one way or another. I dislike the idea of having all of the PrC feats attainable after level 8 when you only have 3 or 4 levels invested in it; that feels like getting your cake and eating it. I think some sacrifices should be made when you're choosing a prestige class, which is why this idea kind of forces you to commit to either a baseline class or a prestige class to get the benefits of one or the other.

Ultimately, if you go with a level 5 fighter and a level 3 Sword Leader, for example, with the possibility of all of the Sword Leaders feats available down the line - as long as you invest enough time - you're eventually going to be insanely strong compared to people who went pure Fighter or whatever, because looking at some of the highest level PrC feats, they really outshine everything I've seen suggested from the other feats in the list Loreweaver made for the E8 post-level 8.

Similarly, if you're getting the massive plethora of feats available to PrCs in 3 or 4 levels, there is literally no reason not to choose a PrC as soon as you possibly can take it. Again, that really doesn't sound like a good, balanced plan of action.

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Re: Prestige Classes

Postby Kerstman » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:48 am

About the other base multiclasses. Yes you are very right. However, I planned my PrC and knew up front she'd have 5 levels of sorceror. If that gets all overhauled now it'll feel very strange to me. Obviously it's different for players who will build a new character, but there are PrC's out there who are level 6+ already. Even those who plan to go PrC but are still in the lower level range may see their character building / planning turned all around if the requirements are dropped heavily. That's why I am still in favor of the two options I suggested.

Also I did not say that all PrC feats should be gained after level 8. Most PrC's take their first prestige level at around 5 or 6. Which allows for three or four PrC levels before hitting the cap.

The sacrifices I knew about up front and I accepted them fully. If I have to make another retroactive sacrifice while I am quite far on the road with my character I do not know whether I'll be inclined to continue playing the character. I am sure you can imagine my point there.
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Re: Prestige Classes

Postby Khaela Mensha Khaine » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:44 am

Kerstman wrote:
Ahhh, yeah I see your concern now. That's pretty fair, however I think that technically it shouldn't affect you too much depending on how the first 3-4 levels of the PrC are altered feat-wise? If the minimum requirements are lowered that may make you re-think how you've built your character but, I think, the baseline feats and skills that you took shouldn't really be altered overly if you've still got that PrC in mind.

So, really, the main concern would only be what you took in your starting level; as far as the rest goes, I would think any kind of overhaul on the server regarding classes or feats would result in people being allowed to re-level their characters once with the new changes in place. I think that's one of the things which the design team might be trying to avoid, however . . I'm not sure. I don't think re-levelling characters is particularly hard as DMs can do it in a few seconds just by de-levelling your character and then refunding you the experience.

The way to keep track of who needs a re-level and who doesn't would be by giving characters a little token of some sort the first time they log into the server after the overhaul, and once the re-level has taken place the token is taken away. I've seen a few servers handle such things like that.

So what I'm saying is, there's ways around that if you feel like maybe you don't want to have 5 levels of sorceror and would prefer to then invest more levels in your PrC. But if you're talking about wanting your 5 levels of sorceror and also all the feats from the 3 (or however many) levels of your PrC, that could also be done as long as they keep the level progression for certain classes largely intact. Maybe a little compromise would be needed but yeah, what do you think of that?

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Re: Prestige Classes

Postby Kerstman » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:53 pm

As said before, for any caster class as base class it will involve a loss of spells. Which can have a heavy impact. The character was made with the information available on the TER wiki at that time. Now about two years ago. It mentions that some classes can get the first PrC level at level 5 and others can get it at 6. With a total of 5 PrC levels this implies that the highest level of PrC cannot be gained until hitting level 9. That gave the impression to me that either the general cap would be raised or there would be an alternative system of progress after level 8. I still expect this it happen that my PrC has the potential to achieve all the abilities as they were introduced when the PrC itself was introduced.

I do not know details about all the PrC's, but I know that several in the current situation can never hit their final PrC level at or before level 8.

A compromise may be needed if your suggestion is implied, but I'll always prefer another option that doesn't involve a retroactive character alteration.
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Re: Prestige Classes

Postby Toros » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:15 pm

Kerstman wrote:As said before, for any caster class as base class it will involve a loss of spells. Which can have a heavy impact. The character was made with the information available on the TER wiki at that time. Now about two years ago. It mentions that some classes can get the first PrC level at level 5 and others can get it at 6. With a total of 5 PrC levels this implies that the highest level of PrC cannot be gained until hitting level 9. That gave the impression to me that either the general cap would be raised or there would be an alternative system of progress after level 8. I still expect this it happen that my PrC has the potential to achieve all the abilities as they were introduced when the PrC itself was introduced.

I do not know details about all the PrC's, but I know that several in the current situation can never hit their final PrC level at or before level 8.

A compromise may be needed if your suggestion is implied, but I'll always prefer another option that doesn't involve a retroactive character alteration.
I totally understand and respect that viewpoint Kerst.

Ideally I think every PRC would've been 4 levels and be able to be completed at level 8, and balanced for that level.

Given that I don't believe there is any intention to raise the level cap, either things progress via e8 or a rework of some nature would be required.

The problem with e8 progression is that it could potentially favor characters with PRCs over characters that are say, straight fighter. Something like Wizard 7/High mage 1 but gaining all the high mage feats in e8 would be significantly stronger than a Wizard 8 or even a Wizard 5/High Mage 3 in the end.

I made a thread some months ago suggesting a 4 level rework for sword leader/shadowdancer/blackguard aimed at this sort of issue, and it generated interesting discussion.
I'm not entirely sure what the solution is, as with a few exceptions I don't think PRCs are in a good place mechanically.
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Re: Prestige Classes

Postby Khaela Mensha Khaine » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:19 pm

Kerstman wrote:As said before, for any caster class as base class it will involve a loss of spells.
I think that entirely depends on how the caster-related classes are reworked, and again I don't think a major overhaul would be needed to make them balanced. I haven't unfortunately been able to see how they work in-game, and I may be interpreting this wrong, but looking at the High Mage and Pale Master on the wiki it states that they have spell progression every other level.

So here's what I would propose in the case of, say, a Sorceror/High Mage multiclass. Basically, if you go 2 Sorcerer/6 High Mage you would effectively gain spell levels at the same rate, but spell slots at a reduced rate. In other words, you would still have access to the same spells as a 2 Sorcerer/6 High Mage as you would a pure level 8 Sorceror, but you would have less of them to off-set the extra feats that you are gaining from those PrCs.

I don't know how easy this is to implement so apologies to anyone on the design team looking at this and shaking their head in dismay, but if this is possible then it would - to me - be the only fair way of allowing people to multiclass PrCs without making pure classes redundant.

I understand and respect what you're saying, but I mean, if you're talking about going 5 Sorcerer / 3 High Mage, 3 Pale Master or 3 Daemonbinder and keeping the benefits of all or even some of those feats from the PrCs and retain the same spell progression, that's quite imbalanced, don't you think? To get to level 5 with full Sorceror spell progression and then dip in 3 levels of a PrC to have a motherlode of powerful feats showered on you . . I don't think that's really fair on people who don't want to utilize those PrCs, whose character it doesn't fit, or similar.

Regardless of whether those extra PrC-related feats are gained post-8 or pre-8, to have the best of both worlds will make pure classes redundant - as I said in my previous post - because post-8 PrC feats should really only be exclusive to the PrCs they belong to, at least in my opinion. Otherwise that makes the PrCs themselves quite redundant, as those feats generally come at some other cost to the character and their build.*

So what I'm suggesting is being realistically able to gain all the PrC feats by investing in the full 5 or 6 levels of that PrC, or otherwise compromising some of those feats for baseline class perks instead (in the case of casters, it might be extra spell slots or so). One way or another, you're giving something up. I understand that may upset people who made their characters long ago with the thought that there will be a rise in the level cap at some point down the line, but with the way things are being spoken about now, that doesn't seem likely so these suggestions I'm making are basically compromises that will best balance everything out. On that note:
Toros wrote:Given that I don't believe there is any intention to raise the level cap, either things progress via e8 or a rework of some nature would be required.
Yeah. This was kind of the impression I got, which is kind of why I made this thread to get the ball rolling. I really like the custom PrCs a lot and I feel like it's a bit of a wasted effort on the part of the design team as it stands because people aren't getting the most out of what's been made. With a little tinkering, in my mind, almost everything that they intended could be available to people to fully enjoy.

But I believe that fully hinges on making the PrCs no better or worse than baseline classes.
Toros wrote:I made a thread some months ago suggesting a 4 level rework for sword leader/shadowdancer/blackguard aimed at this sort of issue, and it generated interesting discussion.
Absolutely, read that thread before I even made this one and I liked a lot of what I saw. I kind of agree that it would be cool for Evil PrCs to get a little more power, too, but that's another subject. Ultimately I just think this suggestion is - similar to your suggestion about 4 levels max for PrCs - minimal work on the part of the design team, however with my suggestion it also forces you to sacrifice a little more in favour of these PrC-specific feats which, as I said, I find a little bit on the powerful side and which probably should and would be balanced if players are forced to really commit 6 levels in them to get the most out of them.

As you say, I'm not sure if this is definitely the solution or even if all of what I'm saying is capable of being done, but I'm hoping it's a strong enough suggestion that the design team can look at it and take positive ideas on the direction they want to go.

*Edit: An extra thought on the post-8 feats. Even if you were to add feats equivalent to the strength of the PrC feats, the truth is you are always going to have to multiclass to gain a PrC, so if you ever take a PrC you will still have exclusive access to both the equal-strength post-8 feats and the PrC feats . . a luxury of choice which non-PrC builds will not have, choices which may completely knock PrC builds out of balance even further for intelligent min-maxers.


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