Meta: Suggestions Topic

Share an idea or post some constructive criticism for the server.

Poll everything?

Yes
3
30%
No
7
70%
 
Total votes: 10

Silver Snow
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Meta: Suggestions Topic

Postby Silver Snow » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:33 pm

As meta as this is, I'd like to see about offering a suggestion on the Suggestions topic at large itself.
One thing I have noticed about the topic here is that while it has hosted many posts, discussions, ideas, and arguments..it has not led to much action. Many of the good ideas that seem to gain large appeal, even agreement on from some of the DM Team, lead nowhere and are quietly forgotten. I am personally concerned that the Suggestions thread has been largely wasted on discussion and argument for the sake of it, and has not been efficiently implemented into a forum that can benefit the server in a large way.

Part of the cause is, I believe, the nature of the sort of threads that this topic can spawn. Especially when discussing balance changes, classes, and the sort of things that are not so simple, the discussions have very often become heated and inflamed, and even personal. Many of these discussions had very vocal opinions expressed by players on either side of any issue, but not often in a way that lead to anything conclusive or more than a status quo.

My concern is that this is a poor representation of what the topic should be. The premise as I understand it is not to out-argue one side nor win them over to your opinion, but to express an opinion and see which path has the greatest appeal to the players and DMs so that decisions can be made. As it stands, it had become a forum for argument with a rare inclination for any direction or conclusion. There will rarely be any one issue that everyone agrees with, but if there is even a small contingent of individuals arguing vocally for one cause it could very ably stalemate a discussion, even if the majority of individuals are for the other side. One of the issues that I see is that it takes effort to make a post to express an opinion, and many may not bother if theirs has already been vocalized by another. As such, heated topics often devolve to discussions among a few about minutia and do not get the actual playerbase levying their opinions.

I propose that the entire Suggestions Topic take the model of what LW had implemented once in regards to the E8 system, with several options to vote on and an easy way to express support for one option or another. Historically, most debates have been able to be compressed to several main options and paths forward, and so would fit this model very well. The one case of this being done before had seen higher "voter" turnout among players than the text-based discussions in other threads, and led to some decisions to be made on an otherwise very complicated and divisive topic.
The ideal way, in my mind, that this works is that any suggestion is made as normal in a thread, and that thread is given time to evolve enough until there are several concise ways forward (including, of course, a status quo). This may also help people formulate arguments instead of simply trying to characterize dislike or a lack of support towards an idea. Once there are several discrete options, a supplementary thread can be made to vote on them, based on the discussions and arguments made in the prior thread. This would let the process be far more effective and democratic, and I think would revitalize this Topic as a whole. As of late, I had noticed that it had seen little life, something I at least attribute from my end as discouragement and doubt that any suggestion made by me may see the light of day.
Hopefully this approach makes sense, and I think I could facilitate some examples from prior topics that had dead-ended, and demonstrate how effective the system could be.

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Kerstman
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Re: Meta: Suggestions Topic

Postby Kerstman » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:02 am

Good points raised, but I do not agree for the full 100%. I'll not elaborate on the uglyness of some of the previous discussions and I think very fruitful contributions to the suggestions have been made in the past. It boils down to being aware we're typing and not talking, counting to 10 before posting while emotional and sometimes a read over a post will make people realize some lines need a better phrasing before posting it. For the rest anything should be up for discussion. No matter the shape of these forums.

However, I am not in favor of the popular vote making the final decisions. Polls are fine to get a general idea of the wishes of the playerbase, but no more than that. The TER Team always has the final say or veto. It may be a dictatorship or an elitist gang making decisions, but I believe they wish the best for TER. A good dictatorship is better than many a democracy. There are a lot of examples in the world.
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Loreweaver
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Re: Meta: Suggestions Topic

Postby Loreweaver » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:18 am

Ultimately there are three criteria which determine when a suggestion is implemented. It has to fit the possibilities of the game, it has to fit the vision of the build team and it has to fit the development schedule. The opinions of players are important both because they can offer new perspectives and because ultimately they are the ones who are affected by changes, but the purpose of the suggestions forum is not to cater to the majority. It's only to improve the module.

I would like to emphasize also that few of the suggestions here are forgotten. There are simply a number of steps between an idea and its implementation and our small group of volunteers has limits in what it can handle. Because of that we prioritize suggestions which are quick to implement and make a difference without overly affecting game balance, and either advance the rest slowly or leave it for periods when productivity can spike.

In the case of E8, the process is riddled with design decisions which result in different, but not necessarily better or worse, systems, so a poll is very helpful in figuring out where to start. It's not necessarily where we end up though, and making it the standard template for all suggestions is going to lead to disappointments. I certainly think there should be the option for a poll when it contributes to the topic, but polls shouldn't be taken as unbiased or as always highlighting the best approach. They're a tool for specific situations, and even then they're only as good as their formulation.

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Re: Meta: Suggestions Topic

Postby Silver Snow » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:11 pm

I would agree that not every discussion here deserves a poll. Most of my thought goes to those discussions that at the end clearly have a few headliner opinions, and the representation of them is unclear. I think it would be a valuable tool to help know what is supported and to what degree. I fully believe no thread is forgotten, but I feel many are still inconclusive. In many of them there usually comes a period after a few pages of discussion where there are a few good options to poll forward, I think we'd be able to logically see when those are and call polls then. At the least it could inform the topic and narrow down the discussion.

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blatob
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Re: Meta: Suggestions Topic

Postby blatob » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:41 pm

What's that poll for? And may we have "I don't care" option to vote for, too?

Silver Snow
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Re: Meta: Suggestions Topic

Postby Silver Snow » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:17 pm

That option is to not vote at all. I do think the pole here misrepresents what I had in mind, as well. Not everything should be polled, but I advocate a heavier use of them. There are numerous examples where a poll would have benefited that come to mind, such as the discussions on bard songs, paladin abilities, and plenty others.

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Poisonous
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Re: Meta: Suggestions Topic

Postby Poisonous » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:19 pm

I would like to vote that I don't feel we should expect builders to do everything we ask. This is a hobby, not a job. Something to keep in mind re: a lot of the recent discussions.
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blatob
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Re: Meta: Suggestions Topic

Postby blatob » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:26 pm

"I do not care" represents the people who do not agree or do not want make difference with either options. That shows what proportion of populace actuality doesn't give a fig. That also puts "yes" and "no" voices in proportion. "Yes" is meaningless if it represents just 5% of populace. They are just, in such a case, loudest.

And, as a builder, I must support Poisonous.

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Feronius
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Re: Meta: Suggestions Topic

Postby Feronius » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:32 pm

Using polls more often in suggestion threads? Sure. Attaching them to every suggestion? No.
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blatob
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Re: Meta: Suggestions Topic

Postby blatob » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:41 pm

Still, I must again ask what the above poll is for?


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