'Epic' feats

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Loreweaver
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'Epic' feats

Postby Loreweaver » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:50 am

As you may know, we've been thinking about an E8-type system for our higher character levels. In essence, it means PCs can't advance beyond level 8 but can continue to get XP. These experience points can then be used to buy extra feats.

The reason we like the idea is that it means characters continue to get more powerful and versatile, almost infinitely so. At the same time, a fresh level 8 PC is not so far behind a level 8 with six bonus feats that it's an insurmountable gap the way level 8 vs level 14 would be.

The challenge lies in giving PCs a wide range of feats to choose from. We don't want them to feel there are only a few good options, because that means PCs become more similar over time. Rather, we'd like them to become more diverse by providing opportunities to specialize and develop unique powers.

Please use this thread if you'd like to add feat suggestions. At this stage, balance and implementability are not major concerns. Thank you.

Loreweaver
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Loreweaver » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:51 am

Author: OldBear [ Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:11 pm ]

First of all, I think this is a good idea to explore. I have two ideas for consideration.

1) Allow as a feat the ability to put "X" number of skill points into an area they don't currently have. For instance 5 skill points into ride.

2) Allow a feat from a prestige class they don't have. For instance a pure rogue being allowed to take a shadow dancer feat. Or a fighter who is being redeemed by a god to take a feat from the divine champion or paladin area.

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Author: Toros [ Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:31 pm ]

I think it would be nice if priests had access to raise dead, even if it required high wisdom/a spell component.

I'd also like to see some teleportation spells for mages, and perhaps a "handsy" feat for paladin that let them use lay on hands more often.

Druids would probably enjoy being able to shift into a horse, with the included speed bonus.

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Author: Copper Dragon [ Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:41 pm ]

I'd like to partake in this discussion but find it difficult to do so - for one, the previous class/balancing Suggestion threads have made me a little hesitant. For another, the classes still require balance tweaks up to lvl 8. A third factor is that I would humbly and personally prefer the level cap to be increased to 12 maximum instead of an E8 system - though E8 has undeniable charms.

To balance the classes beyond lvl 8 requires considerable thought. Some factors regarding TER's possible implementation of E8 are not clear to me.

1.What should happen to caster classes? Should/would spell DC increases, duration increases, effect increases, spell slot increases be implemented?

2.What should happen to higher (4+) level spells? Would sorcerers (and bards) be able to switch them out as per regular level up? Would wizards, druids or priests able to learn new ones through feats?

3.What should happen to Priests' Domains? Would they be reworked so the highest level domain spells can be attained at/by lvl 8?

4.What should happen to PrCs? Would their special abilities be reworked so they could be selected as feats one by one?

5.Would the E8 "level up" occur after every 5,000xp as per the E6 rules?

Before these are answered, the only Feat suggestions I would like to offer are the following.

Generic
Ability Training
Prerequisites: level 8.
Benefit: A feat spent to mark which Ability you would like to increase. It does not by itself give any bonus. Cannot select the same Ability more than once.
Note: In the "official" E6 material, this gives a +2 bonus to Ability checks, but obviously not to the stat itself, nor to anything the stat might affect (skills, saves, AB). By stating above that the feat would give no bonus, I'd like to advocate the belief that Ability checks are redundant; most such checks can be emulated through a skill or a saving throw, and stats by themselves should mark what a PC is likely capable or uncapable of accomplishing - from jumping far to tossing rocks to math puzzles.

Ability Increase
Prerequisites: Must have Ability Training.
Benefit: A feat signifying the completion of your Ability Training, granting you a +2 on the chosen stat. Cannot select the same Ability more than once.

Skill Training
Prerequisites: level 8.
Benefit: (Based on OB's post) Add +4 to any available skill whether you have points in it or not.

Leadership:
Description: Your actions have drawn followers who willingly serve and accompany you.
Prerequisites: Cha 11+, level 8.
Benefit: 2 (+1 per natural Charisma modifier?) followers of lvl x (3?) appear at your summons.
Use: Can only summon followers at a town or outpost. If any followers die, you receive a -1 Charisma penalty per dead follower for 72 hrs, and you cannot have any new followers for 7 days.

Merchant's Friend
Description: Your actions have drawn the favourable interest of merchants.
Prerequisites: level 8.
Benefit: You gain x% (15?) favourability with merchant stores. Stacks with Charisma (Charm Person) effects and Appraise.
Note: The idea behind this feat and Leadership is to acknowledge a lvl 8 character's potential influence and personal-scale effect on the world, without treading onto the soil of DM events or Impilturan politics.
No stat or skill requirement has been placed here to allow for flexibility on what kind of PCs traders might find as a "potential investment". The bonus should be big enough to be worth it as a lvl8+ feat, but not too great to become unbalanced.

Furthermore, all other feats that were available up to lvl 8 should be available at E8 as well.

Allow Improved Critical to be taken as an E8 feat and thus not only available to Fighters.

Class Specific
Barbarian
All feats from the Barbarian Bonus Feat List.

Iron Skin
Prerequisite: Barbarian 8.
Benefit: The barbarian gains 3/- damage reduction that doubles during Rage.

Fearsome
Prerequisite: Cha 13+, Barbarian 8.
Benefit: The barbarian's Rage can induce fear (DC 10 + Charisma modifier) in their enemies for 1 round. The barbarian activates an aura of fear around themselves, lasting as long as Rage.
Note: the fear effect should definitely not last longer than 1 round if the DC is 10 + Cha modifier. That DC might be too high. It should be a DC that has a good chance to affect smaller enemies that come in mobs but not equal, formidable or elite opponents. The point of this feat is to reward full barbarians, while requesting them to invest in Charisma, thus reducing their investment only in physical attributes. Vanilla NWN has Terrifying Rage which should be similar to this but relies on Intimidate skill rather than Charisma - that might still be the best?

Bard
All feats from the Bonus Song list.

Famous
Description: Your fame has drawn the interest of sponsors, who request you for performances regularly.
Prerequisite: Perform 8, level 8.
Benefit: Every x days you receive 300cp.
Note: Again, like with Leadership and Merchant's Friend, the goal is to acknowledge the level 8's achievements and prestige while not affecting DM events or the political landscape. A Harper Scout or other character with sufficient Perform could also take this feat. I didn't assign a precise amount of days for fear of suggesting something unbalancing or redundant.

Druid
All feats from the Bonus Feat List.

King of the Wild
Description: Your actions have drawn beasts who willingly come to your aid.
Prerequisites: Wis 14+, Druid 8, Ranger 8.
Benefit: 2 (+1 per natural Charisma modifier?) animals of lvl x (2?) appear at your summons.
Use: If any animals die, you receive a -1 Animal Empathy penalty per dead animal for 72hrs, and you cannot summon new animals for the same amount of time. Animal type corresponds with animal companion. (Uncertain if this is a good idea in the case of some companions like bears or animals prone to be solitary - it works fine with birds of prey, boars and wolves).

Fighter
All feats from the Fighter Bonus Feat list.

Monk
Improved Evasion
Benefit: As per its normal description.

Extra Stunning Attacks
Benefit: As per its normal description.

Diamond Body
Benefit: The monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.

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Author: Obsidian Sea [ Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:56 pm ]

Personally, I would prefer first to see characters reach level 9 before a cap is implemented. I'm not sure how others feel about this, but I will try to explain below how I think all characters can benefit from this change.

Pro's
•The bonus feat. Perhaps the most obvious and beneficial gain of level 9 is the bonus feat. Everybody gets one, just as they would with E8. Most significantly these would benefit the non-human races, who only gain 3 feats at present, or perhaps 4 depending on their class. On the other hand, this reason isn't a very good one because E8 offers the same thing.
What a level 9 feat does offer, however, is the chance for Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians to gain the Improved Critical feat, which at present belongs only to Fighters under a level 8 system. Fighters will gain another feat at level 9 so that they can keep ahead of the game, however Improved Critical is a particularly game-changing one if only Fighters are able to acquire it. At present, Expertise Fighters still manage to do plenty of the damage in combat, so to give them Improved Critical (most Fighter characters I have witnessed choose a favoured weapon, as they also can then gain the perks of Fighter-specific Weapon Specialisation) continues to give them the edge. This is particularly emasculating to Barbarians, although those who play Paladins and Rangers might quite rightly sulk to see Fighters benefiting from Improved Critical, knowing that they never shall. With Fighters already having Weapon Specialisation, to be the sole beneficiaries of Improved Critical is superfluous.

•New spells. Several Priest domain areas cater as far as lvl5 magic, so Priests would surely enjoy reaching level 9, for a start. It also gives Priests a chance to gain the 'Raise Dead/Revive' spell. This isn't necessarily a positive - it is plausible that the team might not want this to be available to players, in which case a workaround might be merely to bump this spell up to lvl6.
Wizards will hugely benefit from the chance to gain lvl5 spells, and if I recall correctly they would only be capable of using 2 spells per day (3, if they are a specialist).
Sorcerers will not gain level 5 magic, but the distinction between the ways in which Sorcerous and scholarly Arcane magic evolve might be nice. Sorcerers still can gain an extra lvl2 spell, lvl3 spell, and lvl 4 spell, so their cup will indeed runneth over well enough to compensate their well-read adversary's acquisition of lvl5 spells.
Druids might require some balancing if they received lvl5 spells. This would be my main reservation with regards to new spells at level 9, although given the strengths offered by higher level Druid wildshapes, it might not be unreasonable to treat the Druid like a Sorcerer here, and prevent them gaining access to lvl5 spells until level 10, therefore keeping it out of reach.

•PrC benefits. Regardless of level, every PrC-created character will enjoy the opportunity to progress further into their specialist field, given that TER offers an array of new abilities and new PrCs that players cannot experience for their characters anywhere else.

•Dungeon difficulty. Many of the dungeons on TER can scale up to level 9 already, so there would be very little work to be done here. Not necessarily a positive of going as high as level 9, but it feels like I should mention it so that it doesn't fall into the 'con' category.

Con's

•The fundamentals. Personally, I would not like to see HP, skill points and saving throws soaring beyond the point of humility. I always preferred the 2E system that at a certain level, HP began to plateau and you only gained a handful of HP based on your class. It isn't clear whether this could (or should) be implemented here, but gaining new abilities at level 9 might be enough without characters also going deep into the realm of 3-figure HP scores.
Skill points and saving throws might be less of a dilemma on the basis that they will only manage to go up to 1 point each anyway, in the case of maxed out skills. In terms of an E8 system, however, I see no reason why every new feat could not be an additional Skill Focus or Greater Skill Focus for players that did wish to amp their character's skill points up beyond reproach, so arguably there is no con in this area of the fundamentals.

•Multiclassing. Because things have been balanced for level 8, it might be the case that going to level 9 could allow players to exploit the system for unsuitably lucrative mechanical benefits. I hope none of the players here would seek to do so, but it is probably something to be safeguarded against regardless. Personally, I am not able to do the maths on this one, but I can imagine there might be some very glaring incongruities here if one were to raise the system to level 9.

•Acquiring XP. As a very lucrative bonus level (new feat, new spells, new PrC options), it seems as though getting to level 9 probably wouldn't be too difficult for the players that have already managed to get as far as level 7-8. I think that it might be best to set level 9 far outside a player's immediate reach so that it is a long-term goal to strive towards. Perhaps if it required 45000xp? That would require several months of striving, I believe, but sets a goal for players that is still totally possible.
At the same time, setting an XP threshold that high might only make even more of a rift between social players, and less-active players and the ones that make a regular habit of going to dungeons. I foresee the same problem in an E8 system, however, depending on exactly how the benefits of E8 would operate.

All of that being said, I imagine that E8 is a long-term goal for the server, and we should not expect the scripting to be complete on whatever course of action the server administrators choose to take for a quite a while, right? For the moment, whatever the case, it is my suggestion that XP should be capped at 30000xp, so that players who have reached level 8 by the time that the new course of action is brought forward can be implemented, they begin with a headstart, without being able to access the rewards almost immediately.

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Author: kerstman [ Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:34 pm ]

I'll keep it short with saying that I am pretty much in agreement with Copper Dragon about preferring progress to level 12 rather than an E8 or even an E10 system. Roleplay is the main reason why we play NWN online, but mechanical progress plays its part too. Mind you, I don't mind it being very slow mechanical progress. Just some can be enough and I like the pace of it on TER. Mechanical progress has a system already and that is the system of xp and leveling. It brings many variables and bonuses in a balanced system (hp, skill points, feats, spells, saving throws, attacks / round, amount of abilities or spells / day, class levels and the list goes on). This system can ofcourse be adjusted and rebalanced by the DM team where appropriate. Also I really prefer how the PrC's were designed. (Almost) all of them cannot get to their final PrC level beyond level 8. This can ofcourse be solved by making adjustments to the base classes, PrC's and making appropriate adjustments in the E8 system, if it will be there. But then I'd say that developing progress to level 10 and ultimately level 12 may be less work.

As for any level gap. To me TER seems a PW where level gap is not bringing huge inbalance in a party like it does on other places where I have played. And while each player has his / her own style I always encourage players to make alts for various level groups.

To summarize. Level 1-6 are low level. Levels 7-12 would be the middle and level 13+ would be high if we'd assume the max level of 20. If you'd prefer to compare it to level 40 then level 12 is still low level. I am very fine with TER being a low and mid level place and leave it at that. E8 or E10 surely has its benefits, but I do not see why a final cap at 12 does not present the same benefits. Also a level 12 cap might be easier for the balancing and scripting people and it is in line with how PrC progress was designed on TER.

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Author: Loreweaver [ Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:50 pm ]

Thanks for the replies.



Obsidian Sea wrote:

Personally, I would prefer first to see characters reach level 9 before a cap is implemented.

The general feat at level 9 is something we may want to keep available if we opt for E8. The reason is that it always comes at the same level, unlike class-based bonus feats which are vulnerable to multiclassing. Having a feat choice there means we can, hopefully, use the level-up menu for your E8 feat selection to keep the process user-friendly.
Also, if we'd go with a level 12 cap instead then it'd be much more efficient to make class, spell and monster changes for 12 straight away instead of going over the process twice to make a temporary level 9 maximum possible. That's why it seems unlikely we'll abandon the level 8 cap before we've decided on an end game, if the cap leaves 8 at all.



Copper Dragon wrote:

Some factors regarding TER's possible implementation of E8 are not clear to me.

The short answer is that we're not sure yet either. We can implement changes to caster traits. We can include new spell levels. We can rework things designed for a level 12 cap to work with an E8 system. And we can define the rate of advancement, both by setting the XP needed to gain a new feat and by setting the rate at which you gain such XP in the first place.
But how it would work exactly is a problem for the future. I at least am unaware of E6/8/other implementation in NWN which would be satisfactory for our purposes so we'll have to figure it out as we go along. I do think it'll be possible to overcome many of the challenges, but it's too early to be sure.

I understand that sticking with the familiar levels would not be a great loss to everyone. And it'd save a lot of time if we made the decision to do just that now. Sadly, you picked a server with staff members who like to try something unconventional from time to time.

I'd like to clarify that the goal of this thread is to help us determine if E8 is feasible in terms of feat count and variety. We're working on a list of our own but there's every chance great ideas are being overlooked and you can help us limit that.
I'll say again not to worry about feat balance yet. Whether a feat gives +2 skill points or +6 isn't really important here because we can always adjust the numbers or lock some of them behind prerequisites or feat trees. It's the concept that matters.
If it looks like said concepts are numerous and varied enough then we can see if the E8 system can be made to work in a user-friendly and rewarding way. The reason we start with feats instead of with the other questions is that the nature of the feats determines the flexibility required of the supporting framework.
If, on the other hand, it turns out we don't have enough interesting feats for different builds and personalities then we can discard the E8 ambitions right away. Several of the feat suggestions from this thread might still be implemented, but in a fixed cap system at 8, 12 or something inbetween.

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Author: Toros [ Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:39 pm ]

In my mind, the biggest difference between an e8 and e12 system is how dominant we wish casters to be.

4th level spells are potent, but 5th and 6th spells are quite a bit more so. You start getting into save and dies, raise dead, and harm, and while we currently haven't had much player to player conflict, the potential to reduce a player or boss to 1d4 hp can't be understated.

We know that spellcasting classes tend to be stronger in the later levels, and while my understanding is that low levels can be quite unsatisfying, getting to level 4 for an active player can happen quite quickly. Levels 8-12 will be a very long time.

I will adapt to the system we decide on, in any case, but I'm starting to feel the sting of improved expertise offering +6 instead of +10 AC as we start going into higher level content.

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Author: poisonous [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:28 am ]

It may be worth looking into the 5th edition feats--there's some inspiration to be had in some of the RP-friendly low level feats the 5e player's handbook offers. Things like "keen mind" offering a little extra intelligence and roleplayable abilities, or extra proficiency with certain types of armor, etc.

I personally favor an e8 system--easier for DMs, easier for builders, easier for players. Just nicer for balance and maintaining a low-level atmosphere. Infinitely expandable, as opposed to levels, which would have to keep rising.

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Author: Talisman [ Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:27 pm ]

You could add the feats of the class or PRC's natural progression into it, so that you aren't gaining HP, ab, skillpoints but still can "advance" the rest of the way down a PrC. I know shifters would enjoy this a lot, since you can never reach the third forms if we go e8 and don't allow them to pursue those feats.

Edit: Also, if you want to create specialization via feats what you're going to want are feat-trees. i.e. One feat begets one or two more feats begets one or two each, ect. An example of this is a fighter could specialize in "sword and shield" and the feat tree could add bonuses per feat that help a fighter using a shield and single-handed weapon, or a "two-handed" style. A druid could have a "Avian wildshape focus" that gives bird wildshapes bonuses, or a tree that focuses entirely on their healing capabilities. A mage could specialize on a variety of things! Crafting potions/wands of higher quality, a spell school, or even a specific spell--changing and improving how it functions; maybe Sagi learns to control the fireballs in a way that it only harms enemies. Rangers could have feat trees that make them superior fighters in certain terrains, ect. ect. ect.

Of course, this is A LOT of work, and while it certainly would make the server even more special than it is, you're signing up for quite a bit! :3

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Author: Obsidian Sea [ Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:10 pm ]

I very much like the direction in which Talisman has taken this idea! It could be a lot of work, but if level 8 offered 'talent trees' so to speak that allowed classes to descend down more specific routes, gaining small benefits, that might be really nice. The problem here would be figuring out how this distinguishes E8 from prestige classes.

Some ideas of how this might go, just to take Talisman's idea a step further might be:

Paladin
• Advancement in slaying Outsiders and Undead.
• Advancement in defensive qualities: healing, and extending saving throw bonuses to allies, etc.

Bard
• Advancement in the effectiveness of songs.
• Advancement in the Bard's combat abilities, extending perhaps as far as medium armour proficiency without spell failure.

Ranger
• Advancement in fighting favoured enemies.
• Advancement in the Ranger's chosen fighting style.

Priest
• Advancement in domain-offered bonuses, including gaining their higher-level domain spell promises as spell-like abilities.
• Advancement in supportive abilities, allowing them to provide consistent aura benefits for allies.

Depending on how unique this allows somebody to make their PC's build while keeping them tight within the power-expectations for PCs on the server, this could be a really nice way to go. Otherwise, I agree with Kerstman that going as far as level 10 would be nicer.

Ultimately, development will have to stop somewhere for PCs, at which point players will need to decide what new goals they can create for their PCs - or perhaps how they can expand upon these goals. Otherwise, we might as well go as far as level 20 and become lesser Gods, rather than wiggle gradually into Demigod status at level 8.

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Author: poisonous [ Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:33 am ]



Talisman wrote:

You could add the feats of the class or PRC's natural progression into it, so that you aren't gaining HP, ab, skillpoints but still can "advance" the rest of the way down a PrC. I know shifters would enjoy this a lot, since you can never reach the third forms if we go e8 and don't allow them to pursue those feats.


Neat idea!

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Author: Toros [ Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:32 am ]

Jerek would love to be able to share his bonus to saves with everyone.

They'd probably get +3 to +7 depending on how buffed his charisma is, which would really help vs fear.

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Author: Copper Dragon [ Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:16 pm ]

PrC Feat advancement is a must-have in an E8 system. You could make the feats demand prerequisite feats (ie. a level 3 PrC feat should require the level 2 feat before it), which means you wouldn't be able to cherry-pick the best abilities of the PrC but rather advance in said Prestige Class. This fits in well with Talisman's term of progression branches.

I maintain that Improved Critical must be available for other high-AB progression classes (Paladins, Barbarians, Rangers) past lvl 8, not only Fighters. OS has made arguments for this that I do not see the need to repeat.

I echo the sentiment for the progression branches in which a set feats are kept (made) available to classes. Multiclass characters pose an issue here, as they might get access to multiple branches with possibly powerful abilities. It's at least a concern that deserves a mention. The feat-ideas I posted before could be of use to the pure classes if they are deemed interesting enough.

~ Copper

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Author: Loreweaver [ Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:47 pm ]

A lot of that makes sense. Certainly, there's no reason not to unlock feats we already have. At worst, we'd need to throw in some feats meant to meet other feat requirements (e.g. 'count as having +2 bab for purposes of feat selection' or 'count as 3 levels higher in your second class for purposes of feat selection, cannot exceed your total level').

Grouping of feats in branches will probably be inevitable if we want to keep feat selection organized and has a valuable role in feat balance, as it's a way of making choice feats cost more than less impressive ones. I don't think we'd want to be overly rigid though, or it would indeed just be choosing between 2-4 PrC paths depending on your class rather than gaining the freedom to really customize your character.



poisonous wrote:

It may be worth looking into the 5th edition feats--there's some inspiration to be had in some of the RP-friendly low level feats the 5e player's handbook offers. Things like "keen mind" offering a little extra intelligence and roleplayable abilities, or extra proficiency with certain types of armor, etc.

This is material I don't have access to, so I at least can't follow up on it. I'm told feats in 5E are nothing like feats in 3.5 so I'm not sure how they'd compare in the first place. However, if the material inspires feat ideas for TER then please add them to the thread.

You are the players, and this would affect your characters. So don't hesitate to post specifics, and we'll worry about what's actually possible and fair later.

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Author: Toros [ Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:09 pm ]

Some brainstorming:

Bard:
Can play in taverns for sardil equal to 3x their perform skill per day. (Love this idea from copper, wanted to mention it again)

Louder (aka, "up to 11"): song range increased.

Druid:
Wildshape: Travel allowing a horse or wolf form that has 50% bonus movespeed but very modest combat stats

Fighter:
Armor Specialization: Gains bonuses in the armor they specialize in

Heavy: weight reduction and +1 armor AC
Medium: +1 dodge AC and +5% movespeed
Light: +10% movespeed

Paladin:
Death magic immunity feat

Priest:
Potentially gain some of their higher level domain spells as 1/day or 1/week

Ranger:
Wilderness expert: +stealth bonus in wooded areas, can forage materials to repeatedly make a lean-to and campfire (providing improved but not perfect rest anywhere in the wilderness)

Sorcerer/Wizard:
Dimension door, as a spell like ability

Unstable summons: Summons a random creature not under the caster's control ranging from the caster's level -4 to the caster's level +4. Unlike most summons, the creature is persistent (maybe through resets?) until it dies.

-Possible creatures (in no particular order)
Goblin
Gnoll
Bugbear
Troll
Ogre
Hill giant
Mountain giant (outdoor only)
Kenku
Basilisk
Rust monster
Ettercap
Dire Bear
Stone Singer
Hook Horror
Wraith
Shroom Colossus
Dragon (young-adult)

I'm not sure how useful this ability would be, but I know the results would be entertaining.

Barbarian: can access ranger and fighter feats, or take more barbarian bonus feats.

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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Obsidian Sea » Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:28 pm

One concern I have about the E8 system is how sustainable it is in the long term. I would much rather see characters earn skill points at every 3000xp integer which they can invest (though not beyond the level 8 skill investment cap), and perhaps a new few every 9000xp. This suggestion is strictly following the monthly xp allowance of TER, rather than the xp board of D&D 3.5 I fear that being able to constantly acquire new feats will cause characters to become ostensibly, unfeasibly talented, unless this is also capped.

If skill points alone do not satisfy, perhaps drawing upon the 2E system might also be of some benefit, whereby characters beyond level 8 (at each appropriate hit on the E8 system) gains HP. Utilising the 3E attribute modifiers, perhaps the HPs gained would be equal to a PC's Constitution modifier (minimum 1). The theory behind this is showing small but versatile gains for every PC at level 8 which allows them to continue to progress without creating a massive power gap between a level 7 PC of the same class as a level 8 PC who has had a 6 month head start on joining the server.
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Kerstman » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:44 pm

Author: Copper Dragon [ Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:16 pm ]

PrC Feat advancement is a must-have in an E8 system. You could make the feats demand prerequisite feats (ie. a level 3 PrC feat should require the level 2 feat before it), which means you wouldn't be able to cherry-pick the best abilities of the PrC but rather advance in said Prestige Class. This fits in well with Talisman's term of progression branches.

I maintain that Improved Critical must be available for other high-AB progression classes (Paladins, Barbarians, Rangers) past lvl 8, not only Fighters. OS has made arguments for this that I do not see the need to repeat.

I echo the sentiment for the progression branches in which a set feats are kept (made) available to classes. Multiclass characters pose an issue here, as they might get access to multiple branches with possibly powerful abilities. It's at least a concern that deserves a mention. The feat-ideas I posted before could be of use to the pure classes if they are deemed interesting enough.
I strongly agree with all these opinions when I suggest feats for the E8 system. Most important to me are the PrC's. They were developed with a max of level 12 in mind. I'd say that for that reason any PrC who would have the potential to max out their PrC levels from a lvl 12 cap perspective should be able to get all the benefits in an E8 system. An example is that a 6 level PrC which has the first level PrC level taken before 8 should get all the abilities that are listed on the wiki for the PrC. Ofcourse if needed base classes, PrC requirements and the PrC itself could be changed. Which might in turn constitute a rebuild, but that is taking it one step too far at this moment :)

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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Poisonous » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:41 am

Please forgive me if I suggest anything that has already been suggested, or straight up miss what has already been said. There's a lot of text here and I've tried to read it all, but I might miss things!

* First, a suggestion for e8s overall: perhaps having them work outside of the basic nwn system, and instead being a conversation system, will allow more flexibility. Also, I think that having the amount of XP required increase each e8 step would make sense. Finally, it should be considered whether power levels should slowly taper off or, instead, get bigger and come to a head.

* I think that the purpose of e8s should be to reflect continued character experiences and character growth, as well as just provide more diversity and cool abilities.

* I feel that this should be accomplished by making room for "RP feats" as well as "power feats"--perhaps every other e8 is an RP feat, and every other e8 is a power feat. This way everyone gets a chance to choose RP feats.

* e8 feats should allow for more diversity, and maintain character balance. Simply allowing every class to pick any feat (that they qualify for) would be a mistake, I feel--for example, it would remove the benefit of fighters getting more feats, because now every class can get all the feats they want.

* e8 feats could allow players to dabble in abilities outside their class, or work towards some pinnacle of their class (for example, a higher level spell they otherwise wouldn't get access to). e8 feats could also allow higher level crafting, for example spells up to level 4.
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Talisman » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:24 pm

Poisonous wrote: I feel that this should be accomplished by making room for "RP feats" as well as "power feats"--perhaps every other e8 is an RP feat, and every other e8 is a power feat. This way everyone gets a chance to choose RP feats.
I do like the idea of offering neat RP feats (Language: So and so, for example), but I do not know about making them a requirement unless there is enough wealth of diversity among the RP feats that we're not going to be forcing PCs to adopt traits that the player doesn't even think fits that character.

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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Silver Snow » Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 pm

There are a lot of good ideas in this thread for how to continue advancement and give characters more mechanical growth, even when they hit their cap. Clearly, as TER's level cap is at a relatively low level, it isn't terribly difficult to get there. I believe that the current rate (at least among some pretty active players) has been a year or so to get there.
I would like to put forth the thought, though, that there is nothing wrong with a hard stop to progress. Most places do it at level 20, sure, and I do agree that there should be some sort of advancement past 8 whether it's an expanded cap to 10 or 12 or feats, skills, etc. But at one point there does need to be a stopping point. The xp system and e8 system should not be based around players who willingly decide to not play alts or diversify their character list, and most of these suggestions are going to be tailored to people in that position, at least in the near and medium future.
My point is that this system, whatever it ends up being, should itself have a logical stopping point. Once we figure out where that should be, as I think most of us agree that it isn't level 8 as it stands (else this thread wouldn't exist), it will be easier to work backwards and help identify rates of progress.

An idea might be for the cap increase to simulate, piecewise, further levels. For instance, at a certain xp tick, you would get the skill points you'd get at 9. At another, further one, you would get the feat. The next might be the HP, then the AB, then the spells, and so on and so forth. It might even have some merit to be able to take parts from different classes you've already bought into (for instance, the HP of a fighter for one upgrade, and the skills of a rogue), to help with a little custom diversity. The natural cap for this might a simulated level 10, that takes as long to get to from 8 as it took to get to 8 in the first place. It's a thought, probably a frustrating one to script, but I at least find it interesting. I'm not looking at any time soon, though, so I'm not lobbying for this all just yet!

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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Poisonous » Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:42 pm

Silver Snow wrote:An idea might be for the cap increase to simulate, piecewise, further levels. For instance, at a certain xp tick, you would get the skill points you'd get at 9. At another, further one, you would get the feat. The next might be the HP, then the AB, then the spells, and so on and so forth. It might even have some merit to be able to take parts from different classes you've already bought into (for instance, the HP of a fighter for one upgrade, and the skills of a rogue), to help with a little custom diversity. The natural cap for this might a simulated level 10, that takes as long to get to from 8 as it took to get to 8 in the first place. It's a thought, probably a frustrating one to script, but I at least find it interesting. I'm not looking at any time soon, though, so I'm not lobbying for this all just yet!
I like this idea.
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby cyberjesterb » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:43 am

Poisonous wrote:* e8 feats should allow for more diversity, and maintain character balance. Simply allowing every class to pick any feat (that they qualify for) would be a mistake, I feel--for example, it would remove the benefit of fighters getting more feats, because now every class can get all the feats they want.
I agree with this statement, especially if we are still sticking with a balance around level 8. I know this may be an unpopular opinion but I very respectfully disagree that all other high AB classes should gain access to Improved Critical through this system. The reason for my feeling this way is that the three other classes that fit into this category all end up gaining quite potent and unique benefits of their own on the path to 8. Fighters do not gain access to spellcasting, self buffs, greater skill point access, and a host of other things that add versatility and roleplay strength.

As the server has currently been balanced, just about everyone gets something special when they hit 8. In a fighter's case this is likely Improved Critical in the weapon they favor. This is the ultimate accomplishment of a character who has devoted themselves to nothing but mundane combat. At the expense of many other benefits garnered by the other classes. To so casually hand this Feat away at the current server balance seems like it would be a mistake.
Last edited by cyberjesterb on Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Kerstman » Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:47 am

I would like to add something to Improved Critical. The key trait of the fighters is their amount of feats they get to amass when compared to other classes. The suggestion about improved critical is that only a few melee oriented classes get access to it. Personally I would say it fits the classes with 1/level AB progression and that means only the barbarian and the ranger, maybe Paladin. Perhaps a PrC or two also can make a valid claim.

The level cap line is drawn at 8. To not include those classes to a feat they'd normally take at 9 feels harsh, especially since they have an extremely valid claim to it in regard to martial prowess and experience. When compared to a ranger or a barbarian a fighter will still have very different abilities / specializations if those others also get the improved critical feat. They get free access to more armor and shields. Weapon specialization and 4 extra feats. That is twice as much. True, the others have their benefits too but granting IC will not throw the balance off.
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