'Epic' feats

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Poisonous
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Poisonous » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:04 pm

I'm thinking something like, at the very least you have to log in once a month to get the cap raised. That way people who play less aren't shut out, but people who don't play at all are.
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Feronius
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Feronius » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:14 am

I was thinking of cap more in the sense of, putting a limit on the number of bonus feats you can accumulate after hitting level 8.

Assuming you are talking about the XP cap, I think that is a good idea. Or even just to not allow the XP cap to 'stack' indefinitely, so you can never save up more than 6000-9000 worth of unspend XP or level from 5 to 8 within the same month.
Although this is perhaps a subject for a seperate thread, as it does not directly relate to the 'Epic' feats idea.
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Kerstman
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Kerstman » Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:42 am

Feronius wrote:I was thinking of cap more in the sense of, putting a limit on the number of bonus feats you can accumulate after hitting level 8.

Assuming you are talking about the XP cap, I think that is a good idea. Or even just to not allow the XP cap to 'stack' indefinitely, so you can never save up more than 6000-9000 worth of unspend XP or level from 5 to 8 within the same month.
Although this is perhaps a subject for a seperate thread, as it does not directly relate to the 'Epic' feats idea.
I share this opinion and it is what I meant to say too when I referred to an ultimate hard cap for all PC's. For all I care this can be set at a very high XP amount, but I think that it can be discouraging to newer players if it looks like the older ones who played on TER earlier shall always be a few steps ahead. I am all for equality in this, but the final point of equality which is the hard cap can be reached quite late.
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Poisonous » Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:55 am

Feronius wrote:I was thinking of cap more in the sense of, putting a limit on the number of bonus feats you can accumulate after hitting level 8.

Assuming you are talking about the XP cap, I think that is a good idea. Or even just to not allow the XP cap to 'stack' indefinitely, so you can never save up more than 6000-9000 worth of unspend XP or level from 5 to 8 within the same month.
Although this is perhaps a subject for a seperate thread, as it does not directly relate to the 'Epic' feats idea.
Yup! And I like your idea about not allowing the XP cap to stack indefinitely.
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Loreweaver » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:29 am

While they are valuable ideas and important to consider, I see them as the last step in tweaking and balancing this system before turning to the actual coding. These are problems with multiple possible solutions, and I feel those will be defined largely by the number, diversity and power of the feats we hope to add.
For example, if we have relatively few feat types, a hard cap is the obvious choice. That could be a fixed number of total feats, a fixed number of feat chains (with some longer than others), a fixed number of spell/combat feats and separate value for more neutral personality feats (perhaps representing mental and physical changes, like trading -2 Intimidate for +1 Bluff or -1 DEX for +1 CON), even a cap which differs by class (say, to maintain the Fighter's feat advantage). If we create a ton of different feats, a soft cap may be more effective, such as giving an XP discount based on the difference between your current feat count and that of the PC with the most E8 feats. And again, perhaps based on the strength of your last feat pick or your classes or your INT score or your race. They all have their own advantages and disadvantages, and I at least don't believe I could make a sensible choice at this stage.

For now, I am most interested in hearing what you'd like to see for your characters (present, past and future), and would encourage you not to worry too much about game balance yet. If you're concerned you won't meet feat or level requirements, suggest requirement meeting feats. "Count as having +1 bab for purposes of feat requirements," "Count as having +1 level in Paladin, can be taken multiple times up to level 12, requires Paladin level 5+," "When casting a Summon Creature or Animate Dead spell, increase duration as if you had +3 levels (up to a maximum caster level of 8)," and so forth. Although that can be a long list, and setting requirements for feats is, again, part of the final tweaks, so starting with feats like that is probably like working the wrong way around. Let's first focus on the possibilities, not on the limitations, and trust that any issues can be overcome.

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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Ataraxia » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:48 am

Having ways to increase the effective caster level of a character when casting spells could be interesting for those who can cast. That way wizards, paladins, bards, etc, can still see their spells becoming stronger.

Ways to "buff" special combat abilities could be the non-caster equivalent of that horizontal progression.

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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Feronius » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:03 pm

The most exciting thing for me about playing a caster is always getting new spells or more to choose from. As a Druid, Priest or Wizard this might have somewhat less of a 'Wow factor', as they can swap out spells before resting, but as a Bard or Sorcerer you are pretty much stuck with the spells you chose for what can be a very long time. Beyond level 4 this will be 2 months or more and, short of a relevel, you are stuck with your selection of spells indefinitely at level 8.
To idea of gaining additional feats as a caster after level 8 is nice, I guess, but kind of makes me go "What would I do with them?" It would probably just lead to more passive feats, which are unlikely to really impact my gameplay experience in any meaningful way.

So for caster classes it would be cool if they were able to continue to learn new spells, increasing their number of known spells, but without gaining any more uses a day in any spell circle as you usually would when leveling up. Allowing them to pick a wider variety of spells, including some that you may normally pass up on because they offer little more than to add flavour to your roleplay.
I have no idea how overpowered this would make casters, but game balance aside that is the coolest thing I can come up with. That is, short of giving them access to completely new spells beyond level 8 or offering them more spell slots, but that would without question make them overpowered.


For melee classes I would suggest a similar thing, but instead offering them bonus feats that fit their class. As if they were still training to learn new combat moves, instead of learning new spells.
Mainly active feats along the lines of Called Shot, Disarm, Knockdown, Shield Bash and Stunning Fist or group feats such as Mounted Archery, Mounted Combat, Phalanx Fighting and Shield Wall. Things I would normally be very hesitant to invest too much in, finding them fun yet only useful under very specific circumstances, or would pass up on because I am too short on feats and need them all for more important 'must-have' (passive) feats.

Whether your character would gain bonus feats and additional combat abilities or would get to broaden their selection of known spells would simply be based on the class that you have invested the most levels in.
I considered also suggesting something for level 8 characters with no inclination towards combat (or who have chosen the Civilian class), something along the lines of an option to invest in a Skill Focus feat instead that increases your knowledge skills? But then I realised that it would be an incredibly unlikely scenario for such a character to ever reach level 8 several times over without at least picking up some combat abilities.



Why focus on offering them more known spells and active feats? Because by giving players access to tons of passive feats, one level 8 could become a hell of a lot stronger and harder to kill than another level 8 who has gained less feats. But in the end, there are only ever so many spells and abilities that you could use at once or per round. So statistically speaking the gap between older and newer level 8 characters will stay a lot smaller if it provides mostly actively used abilities, whilst at the same time still allowing characters to keep growing and learning. But mainly just because these are the things I enjoy most and look forward to most when leveling up, it gives players access to more of the fun to use mechanics that help keep combat from getting a little too repetitive.

Game balance wise the main worry about this would probably be that this might still lead to casters who pick up every spell imagineable that provides a stackable buff and take away from the challenge of the end-game content. But when you think about it, if a player were so inclined they could probably already go that route with a level 8 character even without having any additional known spells at their disposal. Mechanically speaking, melee classes should ultimately gain more from this idea than casters will, but I am fine with that.
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Obsidian Sea » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:04 pm

Can the idea behind the E8 system be explained more clearly here, or elsewhere? I am still not exactly certain what is intended with it, or if it is the more desired direction of the player community. Will feats accessible between level 1-8 still become available, or would we be working with a whole new table of feats exclusively for level 8 PCs? Won't this system eventually have to come to an end too, or else in the long-term ultimately allow a level 8 Fighter to be capable of everything, and make the distinction between a level 8 Fighter and a level 8 Fighter who has been E8 for 9 months just as evident as if the latter Fighter had simply been allowed to rise to level 12? With each class have it's own unique paths of progression in E8? What about PrCs? And how do multiclasses profit and suffer by this system (as they must rightly do both)?

I'm not necessarily opposed to the system, though at the moment because I do not really understand the purpose of it, I'm not that hot about it; and can't offer any suggestions, because I don't know if they would fit at all with the envisioned path! Woe is me. :(
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Feronius
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Feronius » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:46 pm

Unless I misunderstood Loreweaver's last post, I think all of this is yet to be decided.

They are simply looking to add a system that allows you to progress even after hitting level 8 (in the forms of bonus feats or something along those lines) and want to hear player opinions and ideas on it, I think? Like a brainstorm thread. Which feats, what kind of feats, how many feats or even if to go with bonus feats at all, I think all of that is still completely undecided at this point.
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Loreweaver » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:02 pm

Indeed. The answer is simply that we don't know what it will eventually look like. We're not yet at the stage where we can judge whether there's enough material to make it work at all. The question of how it would be made to work, then, is impossible to answer.

I understand from the replies to the topic so far that determining what would be fun and interesting first and then working out how to put that into a practical form is not everyone's favoured approach. But the problem with choosing a form first and then trying to fill it with feats is that your form will either turn out to be unworkable anyway as new ideas emerge or that you're needlessly limiting your options ahead of time. That is why I at least prefer to start with the feats for this project and work from there. Consider it a brainstorm because that is what it is.

We hope to take on board as many player suggestions as possible, both because you have an interest in it and because it saves us from having to to all of the design work ourselves. At some point, we'll have gathered what we can, we'll design a framework for it and we can discuss if it's fair or balanced. But chances are that new additions don't easily fit the framework anymore at that point, which means now is the time to list what you'd like to see.
If it helps, just imagine you get two feats at level 9 and another at level 10, and they could have any effect you want as long as they're not already on the feat list.


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