'Epic' feats

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Toros
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Toros » Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:24 pm

Feronius wrote:The most exciting thing for me about playing a caster is always getting new spells or more to choose from. As a Druid, Priest or Wizard this might have somewhat less of a 'Wow factor', as they can swap out spells before resting, but as a Bard or Sorcerer you are pretty much stuck with the spells you chose for what can be a very long time. Beyond level 4 this will be 2 months or more and, short of a relevel, you are stuck with your selection of spells indefinitely at level 8.
To idea of gaining additional feats as a caster after level 8 is nice, I guess, but kind of makes me go "What would I do with them?" It would probably just lead to more passive feats, which are unlikely to really impact my gameplay experience in any meaningful way.

So for caster classes it would be cool if they were able to continue to learn new spells, increasing their number of known spells, but without gaining any more uses a day in any spell circle as you usually would when leveling up. Allowing them to pick a wider variety of spells, including some that you may normally pass up on because they offer little more than to add flavour to your roleplay.
I have no idea how overpowered this would make casters, but game balance aside that is the coolest thing I can come up with. That is, short of giving them access to completely new spells beyond level 8 or offering them more spell slots, but that would without question make them overpowered.


For melee classes I would suggest a similar thing, but instead offering them bonus feats that fit their class. As if they were still training to learn new combat moves, instead of learning new spells.
Mainly active feats along the lines of Called Shot, Disarm, Knockdown, Shield Bash and Stunning Fist or group feats such as Mounted Archery, Mounted Combat, Phalanx Fighting and Shield Wall. Things I would normally be very hesitant to invest too much in, finding them fun yet only useful under very specific circumstances, or would pass up on because I am too short on feats and need them all for more important 'must-have' (passive) feats.

Whether your character would gain bonus feats and additional combat abilities or would get to broaden their selection of known spells would simply be based on the class that you have invested the most levels in.
I considered also suggesting something for level 8 characters with no inclination towards combat (or who have chosen the Civilian class), something along the lines of an option to invest in a Skill Focus feat instead that increases your knowledge skills? But then I realised that it would be an incredibly unlikely scenario for such a character to ever reach level 8 several times over without at least picking up some combat abilities.



Why focus on offering them more known spells and active feats? Because by giving players access to tons of passive feats, one level 8 could become a hell of a lot stronger and harder to kill than another level 8 who has gained less feats. But in the end, there are only ever so many spells and abilities that you could use at once or per round. So statistically speaking the gap between older and newer level 8 characters will stay a lot smaller if it provides mostly actively used abilities, whilst at the same time still allowing characters to keep growing and learning. But mainly just because these are the things I enjoy most and look forward to most when leveling up, it gives players access to more of the fun to use mechanics that help keep combat from getting a little too repetitive.

Game balance wise the main worry about this would probably be that this might still lead to casters who pick up every spell imagineable that provides a stackable buff and take away from the challenge of the end-game content. But when you think about it, if a player were so inclined they could probably already go that route with a level 8 character even without having any additional known spells at their disposal. Mechanically speaking, melee classes should ultimately gain more from this idea than casters will, but I am fine with that.
A couple of things.

1) You keep referring to "caster classes" but the only ones this would effect are bard and sorc. Divine casters always can prepare every spell they could cast, and wizards can find spell scrolls.

One of the fundamental differences netween sorcs and wizards on TER is that sorcs cast more spells and can cast them quickened for a time causing far more devastation than a wizard could. They give up variety for power mechanically, and RP wise their power is innate.

If learning new spells is something you really enjoy wizard would seem a better fit.

2) The difference between a fresh level 8 and one with a handful of e8 feats will probably not be that dramatic as the vast majority of players will pick up their core power feats as soon as possible, and most characters won't gain much from passive feats in terms of power.

Consider a character who takes expertise pre-8 and then takes toughness or save feats later. Other than hp total, it would be difficult to notice the difference, and imp. expertise becomes immediately apparent after a few combat rounds.

There are exceptions, Jerek is one of them due to Paladin not getting many feats and having more divine feats than usual to choose from. But generally I believe the magical and unique items each character acquires from 1-8 will have more of a dramatic impact than the passive feats would with the current selection.

However, things like increased effective spell level do make significant changes, especially if it can be taken repeatedly, so we'll have to see how everything works in the end.
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Feronius
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Feronius » Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:45 pm

I have barely come across any spell scrolls on this server though. But that is a good point.

Still, I think I would find additional active feats, spells and abilities more enjoyable than passive bonuses.
Not entirely sure what feats or abilities these would be though if it could literally be anything I can think of.

The idea of being able to save up for a unique custom spell or ability, within certain limitations of course, is also an interesting thought.
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Kerstman
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Kerstman » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:02 pm

Just a slight side step. Spell scrolls are quite common in loot. 3rd circle arcane scrolls can be found regularly, but you may have to be in a place or in a company that operates in a bit higher loot tables. Also it is often a good idea if the wizards of TER cooperate and scribe scrolls for eachother. Something that is very rp promoting and I think it is generally enjoyed by the players playing wizards. I do not doubt that eventually we shall run into 4th circle scrolls a bit more too.
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cyberjesterb
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby cyberjesterb » Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:29 am

Since suggestions on what we would like to see available for our characters were asked for. Here are a few Fighter specific E8s I would be interested to see. The first of which I'm just going to echo Toros on for the most part. The balancing for these would probably need work but I tried to aim low for now.

Armor Specialization: Gains bonuses in the armor they specialize in

Heavy: weight reduction and +1 armor AC
Medium: +1 dodge AC and +5% movespeed
Light: +10% movespeed

Prerequisites: Proficiency with the chosen armor type, Fighter level 3+

Shield Specialization: DR 1/+1 while wielding a shield

Prerequisites: Shield Proficiency, Fighter level 3+

Shield Mastery: Receive a small concealment bonus while wielding a shield (5% possibly?)

Prerequisites: Shield Specialization, Fighter level 3+

Tactical Advantage: Flanking bonus to AB increased to +4

Prerequisites: Wisdom 13+, Fighter level 3+

Tactical Awareness: Flanking bonus enemies receive is reduced to +1

Prerequisites: Wisdom 13+, Tactical Advantage, Fighter level 3+

Cunning Combatant: Able to use Wisdom modifier in place of Intelligence for future Feat choices.

Prerequisites: Wisdom 13+, Fighter level 3+
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Silver Snow
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Silver Snow » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:24 pm

I like these! I haven't dug into the books myself but this is a good start here Jester. I especially like the focus on things that can add to defense, as that's the sort of thing that just won't get to rise much more otherwise.
I as a whole like more offerings on skill and spell focuses as well. The ability to gain further increments on weapon focus and things like that are good too.

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EventHorizon
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby EventHorizon » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:46 am

I really really like Tactical Advantage, and would argue that, if you're going to have the Wisdom prereq, you should either take away the Fighter prereq or give it to the classes that don't have Wizard BAB progression (all of them except Wizard and Sorceror) or, less preferably, to the full BAB progression classes (Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian). This would be a great feat to give Monks a little more relevance, as with the other two Wisdom-based Feat you have there - but it would also be nice to limit Clerics' access to them, since Clerics are typically extremely powerful and would already have the Wisdom for the feats.

tl;dr less rambling:

Make those last three feats accessible to combat classes (fighter, ranger, barbarian, monk, rogue, paladin, bard(?)), incenvitivizing investments in Wisdom but not giving already-high-Wisdom classes even more love (primarily Cleric, to a lesser extent Druids [sorry Druids I love you]).

I added paladins because that's a class I think a lot of people squeeze barely 12 Wisdom into as a minimum; a legitimately powerful reason to have a bit more Wisdom may stretch the other Attributes thin, but will make Paladins feel better for having that slightly bigger Wisdom score.

I added bards because they are easily functional with 10 or even 8 wisdom, and can be legitimately played as a melee-type, so ought to be treated the same as a rogue in this case.

Edit: wait my tl;dr became longer than the first part lol
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Obsidian Sea
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Obsidian Sea » Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:40 pm

I like the idea, if we go forward with the E8 system, that each class has its own trees of progression, as well as there being perhaps universal trees that cater to a general improvement that is not class specific (ie. skill-based progression). Each class might have 2 or more trees that are selected at first E8 to gear them forward, for example--

Ranger

Perfect Hunter - A tree in which the Ranger invests further in their Favoured Enemy aspect, providing FE attack and critical threat bonuses; saving throw bonuses; improvements to Stealth and Set Trap; and improvements to the "Hunter's Readiness" class feature over a series of E8 gains.

Tempest - A tree in which the Ranger invests further in their Ranger Fighting Style aspect, providing attack bonuses; damage bonuses; improvements to Balance and Parry; and improvements to their group fighting style feat; allowing it to be used even in the absence of party members that lack the corresponding feat ("Blade Storm" or "Arrow Storm").

Druid

Wildheart - A tree in which the Druid invests further in their Wildshape aspect, providing longer durations; passive empowerments to each shape; and improvements to Animal Empathy and Survival.

Nature's Guardian - A tree in which the Druid invests further in their spellcasting aspect, providing heightened elemental damage output; increased range on spellcasting; and improvements to Concentration and Spellcraft.

Sorcerer

Draconic - Sorcerers with Origin (Draconic) improve their HP and Fortitude saving throws; gain resistance to the element corresponding to their origin's breath weapon; heighten their DCs on spells corresponding to their origin's breath weapon(s); and gain improvements to Intimidate and Spellcraft.

Fey - Sorcerers with Origin (Fey) improve their Reflex saving throws; enjoy increased range on spellcasting; gain a small, passive Concealment bonus; and gain improvements in Bluff and Spellcraft.

Cosmic - Sorcerers with Origin (Cosmic) improve their Will saving throws; improve their ability to overcome Spell Resistance checks; and gain improvements to Concentration and Spellcraft.



These are fairly similar ideas to the ones I posed a while ago, but now knowing that the system is entirely open to such ideas, I'd love to know if there is any interest in this kind of thing and then I will hope to try harder on developing out such ideas for all classes.
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Loreweaver
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Loreweaver » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:30 pm

Most certainly. The more feat suggestions, the better.

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Kerstman
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Kerstman » Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:19 pm

While I like the Sorcerer suggestions linked to their origin, not all Sorcs fall into one of these three categories. As an example: I found them all three very unfitting for my sorcerer and that is why for her I chose 'unknown'. I do not have a suggestion for the particular origin yet, but I feel it deserves to be mentioned and who knows someone has a good suggestion.
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Xanthas
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Re: 'Epic' feats

Postby Xanthas » Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:21 pm

I do like the idea of specializations like that and realize this threads here to get all the suggestions it can but I thought I might mention that it makes me wonder how it would work for multi classed characters. Would they be be stuck to one tree of progression and essentially be forced to pick what class they want to advance in for all of their E8 advancement? Personally I know I would want to advance in all of the classes my character had in some form or another obviously in a more limited way than a pure class would advance in their one class. I do like the idea of progression paths like this its just that like I said I wonder how it would work with multi classing.
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