No ideas just yet, Kerstman, but obviously I would want there to be a tree that caters to each Sorcerer origin choice available on TER. I didn't want to work too hard to come up with the general idea, in case it wouldn't be helpful.
As for multiclass characters, I imagine each path would be tiered, so that once you selected, say, 'Perfect Hunter' instead of 'Tempest', you had four feats you could gain, but with certain level requirements put to them--
Feat 1 - requires Ranger level 1
Feat 2 - requires Ranger level 3
Feat 3 - requires Ranger level 6
Feat 4 - requires Ranger level 8
Meanwhile, the same progression would be true for the 'Wildheart' and 'Nature's Guardian' trees--
Feat 1 - requires Druid level 1
Feat 2 - requires Druid level 3
Feat 3 - requires Druid level 6
Feat 4 - requires Druid level 8
This way, your multiclass allows you to enjoy benefits from specialised paths for both of your classes, but wouldn't enable you to follow them to their final conclusion, and accomodates the top-heavy nature of a lot of multiclass character concepts: by which I mean, a 6/2 multiclass will continue to bring their level 6 class to the fore - and rightly so. If my maths is correct (it quite possibly is not), then this level-based tiering of each path will make it impossible for any combination of classes to have more than 4 E8, class-based feats. The except would be a 6/1/1 build, I believe, but ... is that going to happen? Is that allowed?
No idea how PrCs would fit into this system, although considering a PrC is already a specialisation, I see no reason that they wouldn't simply continue to accumulate the benefits provided on the wiki for the levels that aren't already available to them. This, however, would need to have a limitation similar to the multiclass hypothesis I am working with so that a Fighter 5/ Weapon Master 3 can still excel more as a Weapon Master than a Fighter 7/ Weapon Master 3.
'Epic' feats
- Obsidian Sea
- Posts: 699
- Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:09 pm
- Location: London, UK
Re: 'Epic' feats
Heomar Bloodstone
Previous Characters
Aryen Caladras
Tristan Thalavar
Nathaniel Askovar
Elizabeth van der Lowe
Previous Characters
Aryen Caladras
Tristan Thalavar
Nathaniel Askovar
Elizabeth van der Lowe
Re: 'Epic' feats
That seems like a pretty reasonable way to handle it to me, though I would agree that a more universal sort of advancement for skills (as well as general feats on the whole) should be available as well in some fashion or another. Perhaps the paths should be a bit open ended to a degree as well? In the sense that for example on the draconic path for a sorcerer feat 2 would be a selection of a few feats to choose from, such as a resistance to their origins breath weapon or perhaps the ability to use that breath to some far lesser degree, or something entirely different from that, the point being to help the characters be more diverse even in the same paths. That would help to keep some more variety among the various PC skills sets instead of consolidating them into two types of progression once they hit level 8.
Re: 'Epic' feats
PrC's are my main concern in an E8 system. I understand what you mean with what you are saying here about the Fighter / WM build. On the other side I feel that this should not necessarily apply to all builds of this type. An example is a Sorc or Wizard based Spirit Caller versus a Bard, Cleric or Druid Spirit Caller. The requirements between them seem a bit off to me since 4 SP's in Sense Motive are required, which is no class skill for Sorcs or Wizards. I think that these two classes can be a formidable base for an SC or at least are not necessarily less suited for this than a bard, priest or druid. I would be sad if a Sorc or Wizard based Spirit Caller would get less out of an E8 system while the other base classes would.Obsidian Sea wrote:No idea how PrCs would fit into this system, although considering a PrC is already a specialisation, I see no reason that they wouldn't simply continue to accumulate the benefits provided on the wiki for the levels that aren't already available to them. This, however, would need to have a limitation similar to the multiclass hypothesis I am working with so that a Fighter 5/ Weapon Master 3 can still excel more as a Weapon Master than a Fighter 7/ Weapon Master 3.
Having said this I shall post a few considerations about the above:
- I realize that I am ofcourse biased in this as I play such a character myself.
- Obviously one of the more optimal base classes can take the PrC levels later, just the same. To me it's about providing the possibility where it -may- first be taken.
- It has been said previously that the suggestions are best provided from a perspective of possibilities rather than restrictions. I agree with this and hence I would suggest to view the PrC levels in a similar way like a hard cap at level 12 would work. If you take your PrC level later, you shall get your E8 PrC abilities later. But it does not necessarily mean that you get less benefits after E8 than those characters who took the PrC level earlier. However, if you took your first PrC level consciously 'too late' then this may be the case. (Too late between quote marks, since if it is a conscious choice there is none of this.)
- I have not looked into all PrC's but the same may apply to other combinations of base and prestige classes.
Mains
Fenneken : Obscure arcanist
Leopold Thunersdai : Damaran Tempurian
Aleks : Rashemi barbie
Alts
Unger mac Rotu : Earthfast tunnel recon dwarf
Badger: Mute hin archer
Fenneken : Obscure arcanist
Leopold Thunersdai : Damaran Tempurian
Aleks : Rashemi barbie
Alts
Unger mac Rotu : Earthfast tunnel recon dwarf
Badger: Mute hin archer
-
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:28 am
Re: 'Epic' feats
Unrelated to the PrC ideas, I still believe that putting everything into the context of feats is a good idea. So to further the ideas of new feats, can we have feats that incrementally simulate added caster levels? For instance, say I am a level 8 cleric and my first e8 feat is one that gives me a bonus "caster" level for the purpose of spell effects. So my Magic Vestment would now be +3 AC instead of +2, my healing would be just that bit more, my duration would be a little bit longer, ETC. I firmly believe that there should be a reasonable cap to these allowed, perhaps a max of 3 total or something, but I like the option to meaningfully progress casters aside from giving them just better DCs or more metamagic.
I do think that the way the server is currently balanced AB advances to melee characters in e8 feats should be pretty minimal, perhaps a single additional equivalent to weapon focus and nothing more, or ones that are very specialized.
Otherwise, I think e8 feats simulating partial bonuses that a new level would achieve is still a good idea. Whether it's half your HD of HP boost, or added "caster levels," or more access to save boosts. The idea is to provide something to sink XP into without the e8 characters getting dramatically stronger than others, but still getting some progressive benefit. In my mind three or so e8 feats should, put together, simulate an added level of a class. I do like that for those who multiclass, some feats would have requirements of a certain level in that multiclass, with the stronger levels of feats requiring more levels in the relevant class. There should also be universal e8 feats that have no real requirements.
On the topic of PrCs, I think that e8 feats should give them some love, more so than to other classes. Most can only be taken fairly late and can get only marginal benefits without an e8 system. How to do this, I'm not sure, and will leave that up to others!
I do think that the way the server is currently balanced AB advances to melee characters in e8 feats should be pretty minimal, perhaps a single additional equivalent to weapon focus and nothing more, or ones that are very specialized.
Otherwise, I think e8 feats simulating partial bonuses that a new level would achieve is still a good idea. Whether it's half your HD of HP boost, or added "caster levels," or more access to save boosts. The idea is to provide something to sink XP into without the e8 characters getting dramatically stronger than others, but still getting some progressive benefit. In my mind three or so e8 feats should, put together, simulate an added level of a class. I do like that for those who multiclass, some feats would have requirements of a certain level in that multiclass, with the stronger levels of feats requiring more levels in the relevant class. There should also be universal e8 feats that have no real requirements.
On the topic of PrCs, I think that e8 feats should give them some love, more so than to other classes. Most can only be taken fairly late and can get only marginal benefits without an e8 system. How to do this, I'm not sure, and will leave that up to others!
-
- Administrator & Builder
- Posts: 542
- Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:39 pm
Re: 'Epic' feats
Thanks again for your contributions so far. We've got a reasonable amount of feat ideas at this point which means that E8 can be considered a theoretically viable option and we can start thinking of the best way to shape such a system. I'll post a rough list below, but first I'd like to draw your attention to this thread through which I'd hope to get an idea of what you all expect from such content.
After we decide upon the best system, if we still want to proceed, we can get to work on organizing, balancing and properly naming/describing the feats. Many of them might still be worth adding whether we go with E8 or not since they work at lower levels too.
Already existing feats are not included in the list, but may be available anyway. For instance, level 3+ prestige class feats could easily be added as an E8 feat tree and a bunch of level 21+ feats can still work at level 8 (but we'll probably avoid Dev Crit, Hellball and Epic Dodge).
After we decide upon the best system, if we still want to proceed, we can get to work on organizing, balancing and properly naming/describing the feats. Many of them might still be worth adding whether we go with E8 or not since they work at lower levels too.
Already existing feats are not included in the list, but may be available anyway. For instance, level 3+ prestige class feats could easily be added as an E8 feat tree and a bunch of level 21+ feats can still work at level 8 (but we'll probably avoid Dev Crit, Hellball and Epic Dodge).
Spoiler:
-
- Administrator & Builder
- Posts: 542
- Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:39 pm
Re: 'Epic' feats
Thanks once more for your contributions in the poll. The system I'd like to propose would work as follows:
- For every 2500 points of XP beyond level 8, characters get one feat point.
- Feats cost 1-4 points depending on their category, with most in the 2-3 range.
- There are no XP caps but PCs can select at most one feat per month.
- PCs can spend a maximum of 15 feat points (+1 per 2 levels of Fighter).
- There may be class-specific feat chains, but all feats are essentially available.
- For every 2500 points of XP beyond level 8, characters get one feat point.
- Feats cost 1-4 points depending on their category, with most in the 2-3 range.
- There are no XP caps but PCs can select at most one feat per month.
- PCs can spend a maximum of 15 feat points (+1 per 2 levels of Fighter).
- There may be class-specific feat chains, but all feats are essentially available.
Re: 'Epic' feats
I have to be honest Loreweaver, the proposed end-game content does not excite me much.
There's a couple of incredibly cool ideas for feats, but so far the majority does not seem truly 'Epic'. I do absolutely like the Barbarian Warcry, Call of the Wild and Teleportation feats, to name a few.
Most of the proposed feats so far are just roll bonuses/ stat boosts of which the majority seem very trivial or extremely situational. I think the majority of those feats might end up being used for maybe 1 character on the server, ever? There are also a few outright overpowered feats in there, again boosts in the form of stats/numbers (Heavy Armour Mastery is a perfect example), to the point where bumping up the level gap would cause far less of a gap in power difference between characters.
But I can't complain too much, because I did not provide many feat suggestions myself either.
That said, I do also really like pretty much all of those rule changes you suggested.
(Though I did not understand those first two about spells or what exactly they do.)
My main gripe with the E8 system is still just the bridge that this will create between level 8 characters and level 8 'Epic' characters.
One level 8 will be much stronger than the other level 8, simply because one character/ player has been playing on the server for much longer. Because with the proposed system, you are talking about months of playing to get a single feat. It would take a new player or new character several real life years to catch up to the veteran players, if they ever even will.
Plenty of roleplayers do not RP the same character for that long, so they would never get to see much of this system, if at all.
I know this thread is aimed towards ideas for end-game content, but I do want to mention that it would (in my opinion) be cool to see feats more evenly distributed across the levels. Instead of just piling everything up until after you hit level 6 or level 8 (or level 8 several times over) first. There are so many classes I would love to try, but there is nowhere near enough time.
The server has some truly interesting class mechanics, which is a huge part of what really sets this server apart and makes it so great. Having to play a character with such limited gameplay (even for NWN) and without access to some of the server's coolest features and abilities for half a year or more before you get to experience the real good stuff, it just seems a real shame. This can be highly discouraging for someone who is just starting out on this server or who likes to roll new characters.
Remember that not everyone has seas of time to spend on gaming or the patience of a saint. It is still just a game, not a lifestyle.
I do realize I am quite possibly/ probably part of a small minority on this server that looks at it this way, but I at least wanted to provide you (the dev team) with a different point of view in a (hopefully) constructive way before the proposed system is finalized.
There's a couple of incredibly cool ideas for feats, but so far the majority does not seem truly 'Epic'. I do absolutely like the Barbarian Warcry, Call of the Wild and Teleportation feats, to name a few.
Most of the proposed feats so far are just roll bonuses/ stat boosts of which the majority seem very trivial or extremely situational. I think the majority of those feats might end up being used for maybe 1 character on the server, ever? There are also a few outright overpowered feats in there, again boosts in the form of stats/numbers (Heavy Armour Mastery is a perfect example), to the point where bumping up the level gap would cause far less of a gap in power difference between characters.
But I can't complain too much, because I did not provide many feat suggestions myself either.
That said, I do also really like pretty much all of those rule changes you suggested.
(Though I did not understand those first two about spells or what exactly they do.)
My main gripe with the E8 system is still just the bridge that this will create between level 8 characters and level 8 'Epic' characters.
One level 8 will be much stronger than the other level 8, simply because one character/ player has been playing on the server for much longer. Because with the proposed system, you are talking about months of playing to get a single feat. It would take a new player or new character several real life years to catch up to the veteran players, if they ever even will.
Plenty of roleplayers do not RP the same character for that long, so they would never get to see much of this system, if at all.
I know this thread is aimed towards ideas for end-game content, but I do want to mention that it would (in my opinion) be cool to see feats more evenly distributed across the levels. Instead of just piling everything up until after you hit level 6 or level 8 (or level 8 several times over) first. There are so many classes I would love to try, but there is nowhere near enough time.
The server has some truly interesting class mechanics, which is a huge part of what really sets this server apart and makes it so great. Having to play a character with such limited gameplay (even for NWN) and without access to some of the server's coolest features and abilities for half a year or more before you get to experience the real good stuff, it just seems a real shame. This can be highly discouraging for someone who is just starting out on this server or who likes to roll new characters.
Remember that not everyone has seas of time to spend on gaming or the patience of a saint. It is still just a game, not a lifestyle.
I do realize I am quite possibly/ probably part of a small minority on this server that looks at it this way, but I at least wanted to provide you (the dev team) with a different point of view in a (hopefully) constructive way before the proposed system is finalized.
Lev Balakov | Radovan Kazac
Re: 'Epic' feats
A very much belated post from me, but Feronius more or less tackles the issue at hand (in my eyes) rather aptly. I honestly think this system would bring more bad than good in the long run, even if I like some aspects of it, and ultimately I am inclined to favour something that doesn't create such a huge gap between newcomers and veterans. As Fentonius mentions above, I think it'd be better to see something that distributes new feats or abilities evenly across levels, rather than having it all pile up towards the endgame, which already takes a significant amount of time and commitment to reach.
Re: 'Epic' feats
Personally I like the suggested system, it would make a difference between level 8s and e8s but I don't think it would ever make a level 8 feel like they weren't bringing something to the table among characters with a few e8 feats. As far as a gap between veterans and new comers the way I am understanding you would rather there be no advancement past level 8 then? (to be clear I'm not trying to be critical I am genuinely asking) The way I see it, at least as far as new comers is that this is a server where things are taken slow as far as character advancement in levels and such. So if people are in a rush to get to the end of what their character can be mechanically then it may not be a great fit for them though that's my opinion only and I wouldn't want it to discourage people from giving the server a try. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to some of the more general feats from this list being added to the level 3 and 6 feat list.
Re: 'Epic' feats
In my humble opinion, the server is already awfully slow-paced and requires such a high level of commitment to reach a mechanically viable and fun point in the level range that the decision to add to the length of it in a way that only benefits max level characters feels a bit strange to me when the system in question could be used to improve the overall experience of TER. I genuinely doubt it's a matter of wanting to rush through content for that matter, and I'm not certain where that mindset stems from. If anything, for some it's a matter of not wanting to commit to a simple game as though it was a job or a lifestyle (which isn't to say they would fit here even without E8, but the current proposed system certainly doesn't help), especially with limited playtimes, whereas others just aren't fond of the direction the server is headed in with E8 due to an already high emphasis on dungeon crawling; both completely understandable opinions to have.
Whilst the difference between a fresh level 8 and, say, a veteran of two years, might not seem like a huge one (and that's only if you look at a veteran who's not aiming for the better abilities and feats), it still would create a gap between us and new arrivals; a gap of many additional months, if not years, depending on the veterans in question and how long the server will be about in the future, which in some cases might be just enough to discourage someone from playing here, knowing that the server already demands considerable commitment.
Honestly, yes, I'd rather see the entire system scrapped and thus have no progression beyond level 8 than have newcomers leave or never join in the first place because of it, and I already know a few who aren't too keen on the system. In the end, players are, at least to me, more important than this.
With that said, though, I doubt that's a realistic outcome, and I do want to highlight that whilst I may not like everything about E8, the feats and abilities for the system itself are very, very neat, and I appreciate the thought and effort that's gone into them, as well as the rest of it, even if it's not all to my liking.
Regardless, your suggestion's not a bad one, I think it would definitely alleviate some of the problems mentioned. Heck, maybe some of them could be specifically targetted for lower levels, or just be handpicked so that some of the minor feats/abilities can be chosen at even level one. All in all, I'm not asking for things to be faster or easier, but rather to share some of that love to the lower level branch if a system is going to be introduced, as levels 1-3 tend to be, in most cases, quite frankly outright frustrating and incredibly underwhelming, as well as boring, no matter your build and class. Granting those levels some new options opens up possibilities for some cool builds that could retain people's interest better in the lower levels, I feel, and generally make the struggle of it more bearable an OOC level.
Whilst the difference between a fresh level 8 and, say, a veteran of two years, might not seem like a huge one (and that's only if you look at a veteran who's not aiming for the better abilities and feats), it still would create a gap between us and new arrivals; a gap of many additional months, if not years, depending on the veterans in question and how long the server will be about in the future, which in some cases might be just enough to discourage someone from playing here, knowing that the server already demands considerable commitment.
Honestly, yes, I'd rather see the entire system scrapped and thus have no progression beyond level 8 than have newcomers leave or never join in the first place because of it, and I already know a few who aren't too keen on the system. In the end, players are, at least to me, more important than this.
With that said, though, I doubt that's a realistic outcome, and I do want to highlight that whilst I may not like everything about E8, the feats and abilities for the system itself are very, very neat, and I appreciate the thought and effort that's gone into them, as well as the rest of it, even if it's not all to my liking.
Regardless, your suggestion's not a bad one, I think it would definitely alleviate some of the problems mentioned. Heck, maybe some of them could be specifically targetted for lower levels, or just be handpicked so that some of the minor feats/abilities can be chosen at even level one. All in all, I'm not asking for things to be faster or easier, but rather to share some of that love to the lower level branch if a system is going to be introduced, as levels 1-3 tend to be, in most cases, quite frankly outright frustrating and incredibly underwhelming, as well as boring, no matter your build and class. Granting those levels some new options opens up possibilities for some cool builds that could retain people's interest better in the lower levels, I feel, and generally make the struggle of it more bearable an OOC level.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests