Monk Discussion

Share an idea or post some constructive criticism for the server.
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Kerstman
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Re: Monk Discussion

Postby Kerstman » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:01 pm

Monks already do not provoke AoO in normal combat thanks to the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. I am of the same mind as EventHorizon when it comes to avoiding AoO's while running. Personally I have assigned W to walking and F to running. Also search mode is my friend. Both because it helps with spotting traps as well as with walking and click-attacking slowly. Thus avoiding many Attacks of Opportunity. The feats will surely help, but it is a heavy investment that some might prefer to spend elsewhere.
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Loreweaver
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Re: Monk Discussion

Postby Loreweaver » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:31 pm

I'd like to start with the observation that no class or role is vital to a party's success. It may affect the difficulty of certain types of dungeon, it will affect your tactics, but neither a high AC tank, nor a rogue, nor a healer, nor an arcane caster is irreplacable.
This is true for monks as well. A rogue can sneak up on a caster and take them out quickly, or dodge through evocations to interrupt the spells. A caster vs caster situation is an even match, assuming both sides are equally prepared. A high level paladin can save against many effects, whilst a bard's buffs can counter others.
However, the monk has a lot of advantages particularly against arcane casters. Spell effects are avoided on several levels, multiple spell interruption attempts can be made each round, they gain disabling effects to buy even more time. They move a bit faster than others, they can sneak, they can punch through spell protections.
This makes them quite good in these situations, but for one thing. The monk's defence against regular opponents is rubbish, leaving them vulnerable to the caster's henchmen.

I'm not surprised then to see suggestions to improve their AC, give them DR or add more HP, either in the form of feats or as items. And why not? As classes go, the Monk is geared towards a melee fighting style but has the worst survivability of any class other than their fellow cloth-armoured mages.
Do consider though that monk-only items can be used by bards and rogues just as easily, whilst their bonus feat list is already quite crammed, particularly in the early levels. Too many early feats don't just help survivability but also encourage multiclass combinations, ultimately harming the monk as a concept. That means that if we make changes, they should ideally be simple and effective.
For example, it's true that there are a lot of Stunning Fist powered feats in various dnd sources, for anything from Blinding Fist to a Fire Damage Shield effect to a damage dealing ranged touch attack. These would be quite interesting in an E8 environment. Or one of them could be granted as a bonus feat at some point in the monk's career. But they can't all be given away for free, nor would they be the general feat choice which saves the class, since those feats are very limited already.
Choosing a fancy alternative might improve the variety between monks and allow one to better tailor them around a theme, but as a mechanical enhancement each extra use comes out of your Stunning Fist pool, which means you gain utility in more situations but there's almost no increase in overall power.

There is one monk bonus feat which I have been looking at for some time, being Improved Unarmed Strike. As useful NWN feats go, I think this one ranks between Improved Initiative and Dirty Fighting, that is, poorly. Wearing any kind of gauntlet or bracelet produces the same effect (which is why most of these have some kind of penalty on TER).
I would like to add some extra advantage to this feat, say, +6 Parry while fighting unarmed for instance. This achieves a few things. The monk gains more power, the feat is a bit more attractive, and non-monks can also benefit from this unarmed combat improvement if they so choose as opposed to widening the unarmed combat gap between monks and others.
Maybe Parry is not the best choice - it's defensive, sure, and matches a monk's style better than AC, HP or DR would I feel, but as you know it only defends against one creature at a time so does nothing to keep the monk safe while wailing on a caster. It can, however, enhance their non-caster related survivability.

The other option I've been toying with is more of a fancy addition where the monk can switch between their normal state and two other, opposed ones. In the example I gave last time I discussed it, they might use their mystical powers to lighten their body (increasing defense and decreasing damage) or make it heavier (increasing damage but reducing defense) for a fixed time, but would have to balance this out by choosing the opposite ability the next time. It was suggested that instead they might use a 'group' and a 'single combat' mode, though I'm not certain about this version because groups naturally become single enemies as fighting goes on. That makes it more useful, of course, but undermines the balance aspect and begs the question why fighters don't do the same.

In any case, the general message of the topic seems to be that monks should be more powerful outside of caster-related activities, primarily in terms of melee survival. It doesn't seem to me that we should want monks to out-tank armoured warrior classes and I'd be hesitant to have them infringe upon barbarian territory with high HP and DR, but if the alternative is ignoring defense for offense and making them more of a glass cannon I think we're also missing the mark.
There is, naturally, a world of difference between having the best AC and having decent AC, so it's not like there's no room to play with here.

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Re: Monk Discussion

Postby Silver Snow » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:20 pm

Agreed with the vast majority of that LW, you did capture the arguments well. I don't feel that everyone is expecting them to be the "best" tank, or have a rogue's vital utility (And I would argue that rogues -are- irreplaceable, and the Wiki says the same: "Rogue - Traps and Locks are very common, making them vital to a sustained dungeon raid.") but I think we get the spirit of it. The monk role is to be at the front line, perhaps not trying to take all the hits, but certainly at risk of getting some. And right now it can't handle those any better than a rogue in light armor can.
I'm a little intrigued by Parry, doesn't it allow as many parries per round as attacks you're able to dish out? With a monk's natural inclination to lay down attacks, I think this, with a lean towards increasing parry, could make it very useful (admittedly I think that with Flurry and Parry both counting as combat modes this might be tricky). I think that it would actually fit the theme of them very well, in fact, as well as the mechanics. Rarely do fighters sit in expertise when they're not being attacked, they drop it to increase their AB. Monks could, potentially, be ready in parry until they're no longer the subject of attention, and then go more aggressive.

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EventHorizon
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Re: Monk Discussion

Postby EventHorizon » Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:00 am

^ All I'll say about Parry is that it's the most profoundly underperforming skill in NWN. There have been conversations about in in Skype chat discussing how you can make Parry work in some - or one - very very specific, ultra niche circumstances, but that's what we're trying to save Monks from in the first place.

On another note, I want to point out that Monks are actually the class with the highest AC potential - but that's on 40 level cap servers; they get to invest 40 levels of Dex stat boosts, which rises past a fighter's full plate - and with weapon finesse, that can make for a powerful melee combatant. However, on an eight level scale such as TER, that can't happen - not that I'd want it to happen per se, because NWN's balance up to 40 is stupid anyway.
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Loreweaver
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Re: Monk Discussion

Postby Loreweaver » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:17 am

This would be a shortlist of options I think may be reasonable.

Movement related:
- Additional movement speed, either as a flat 10% or related to CON
- Better access to Spring Attack, either as bonus feat or through direct qualification at level 3
- Allowing monks to move through ('around/between') other creatures without bumping, either constantly or temporarily

Defensive:
- Earlier access to Uncanny Dodge
- More frequent AC increases (at most every odd level, so additionally at 1, 3 and 7)
- Ki Defense special move, granting 1+WIS (or CHA) temporary HP at the cost of -2 damage for one round, when using no/monk weapons only.
- Improved Unarmed Strike grants +6 Parry on unarmed attacks

Offensive:
- Improved Unarmed Strike grants a 20x3 crit range on unarmed attacks
- Monks gain +4 on rolls to confirm critical hits

Silver Snow
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Re: Monk Discussion

Postby Silver Snow » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:02 pm

Those are some really cool options to choose from. I don't have a monk but I see a lot of interesting potential in a few of these. My favorites are probably better access to Spring Attack, taking out bumping on monks (really creative actually!), uncanny dodge access or the unarmed parry thing..I'm always up for seeing parry get more use as it still implies a tradeoff between defense and offense for the monk in a different way than Expertise does for most other frontliners. That and the philosophy of most martial arts is as heavily influenced by defense as by attack. The extra bonus to confirm crits is certainly nice too.

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Ataraxia
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Re: Monk Discussion

Postby Ataraxia » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:16 am

They're all great ideas honestly. Question is now figuring out which to keep or throw away.

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Talisman
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Re: Monk Discussion

Postby Talisman » Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:19 pm

Just came in to say I really like Parry for monks too! I wish it had a little more utility against two mobs, but one is still nice. Would allow a monk to hold off an enemy better for a little while if they got that +6.

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Ataraxia
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Re: Monk Discussion

Postby Ataraxia » Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:29 pm

Parry's nice but only works for the first attack of every flurry, and limited by number of attacks per round the character has.
So against one opponent with 2 APR, you only get to parry against the first attack and you rely on AC to defend against the second without being able to attack in return because parry mode is activated.

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Re: Monk Discussion

Postby Loreweaver » Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:46 pm

The good news is that most creatures only have one attack per flurry, as very few have more than 3 attacks per round. In addition, monks have more attacks per round than any other class (even without Flurry of Blows) as long as they use unarmed attacks or kamas, and particularly if they dual-wield the latter. The bad news is that monks can be a bit feat starved, so getting your Parry up to epic levels with the Skill Focus and Improved Parry options won't be cheap. But just a +6 and a skill investment goes a fair distance too.


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