I don't agree with this part. In fact, the existence of the player list as it is is actively what's dissuading me from rolling an evil PC at any point - when the big reveal, the big ending comes, there will be no surprise, and a good portion of that story's impact will be dropped. It is, in fact, very dissuading.Khaela Mensha Khaine wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2017 10:34 amI'd say that's more because knowledge of Evil-aligned characters actions often gets metagamed and the server doesn't cater to them on the whole unless it's the Machiavellian kind of evil. Unfortunately, Forgotten Realms particularly breeds the mindset of Good vs. Evil in a straightforward, old-school, black-and-white way. The expectation is that the Good Guys beat the Bad Guys and everyone hugs it out at the end.Poisonous wrote:Perhaps it's part of the reason we haven't had any evil classes.
Not knowing their classes isn't going to change that, though it says much if simply seeing a class OOCly can change the way people react ICly, or that people feel it likely enough for that to happen to be dissuaded from rolling an Evil PC
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- Ember Moon
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Re: Player list
Re: Player list
Pretty much most classes can be evil. There is no need to have it -just- be the PRCs.
The lack of evil characters is more than just that, I myself would not roll one, because the server does not really cater to it. It is hard to actually make a proper villain character, without actual DM support. I think there was a topic about this floating around somewhere too, regarding evil characters on TER.
The lack of evil characters is more than just that, I myself would not roll one, because the server does not really cater to it. It is hard to actually make a proper villain character, without actual DM support. I think there was a topic about this floating around somewhere too, regarding evil characters on TER.
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- Ember Moon
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Re: Player list
It doesn't have to be just PrCs, but honestly, it's not only an argument for evil. Character concepts where a facet of their existence needs to remain hidden, i.e. clerics of certain deities, or, hell, even a very paranoid shadowdancer - what about them?
Re: Player list
Best thing I can suggest, outside of making a change to the NWNX.ini file to hide classes and levels, is to let DMs change your alignment through RP, until it becomes evil. Just be evil.
Re: Player list
Would this not be sorta going around the point of the App-process regarding Evil characters?
Re: Player list
Oh no, if you get evil gradually in game, from , you know, interrogating captured goblins by cutting pieces of them, ones they would miss, off, to eating babies for lunch, it's perfectly ok. I don't look at the classes anyway, but levels, which helps me decide which one to use to log in. Besides, any overtly and explicitly evil PC would end up hunted and killed anyway. It needs some planning to pull off.
- Khaela Mensha Khaine
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Re: Player list
That may be the case, but as Vogelens also pointed out, you don't need to have an Evil PrC if you want to play an Evil character - and that has nothing to do with the Player List. If you do want an Evil PrC, fair enough, but discounting Blackguard the only others really are Daemonbinder and Assassin, both of which have the potential to be roleplayed as Neutral as well as Evil, as has been brought up in various discussions before now.Ember Moon wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2017 7:20 pmI don't agree with this part. In fact, the existence of the player list as it is is actively what's dissuading me from rolling an evil PC at any point - when the big reveal, the big ending comes, there will be no surprise, and a good portion of that story's impact will be dropped. It is, in fact, very dissuading.
However, if you believe that people won't seek to deduce your character as Evil if you even drop the slightest hints, prepare to be disappointed. Will you be as equally dissuaded if someone works it out too soon, before you've had chance for your big reveal? Unless you are absolutely 100% convincingly Good/Neutral and show no signs of your less-than-altruistic intentions - which, by the way, is only really possible if you play Evil alone with a DM to advance your goals - then there's a good to certain chance someone will figure it out. Which is part of what I'm saying.
There are a hundred reasons to be dissuaded from playing an Evil character on TER, but the truth of it is it's always going to be very difficult, frustrating and little-catered to - so at some point you're just going to have to bite the bullet and do it if it's really in your interests. The Player List will have a minimal impact on that and, furthermore, even if you're heading for an Evil PrC you will have to achieve level 5 with a base class to get to it, which will take a lot of time purely because of the way levelling is staggered on the server.
If you want a big, flashy reveal, that's just as possible to happen at level 5 with a DM's help in taking your Evil PrC; unless you intend for the reveal to also be the end of your character . . in which case, I'm not really sure if you're going to get much use out of your PrC anyway if you don't want people seeing you consorting with devils, trapping demons or assassinating people.
To my knowledge, deities aren't apparent for Clerics on the Player List. As for Shadowdancer or other PrCs, I cannot say I've ever seen anyone in-game reference a player by their class or acknowledged class-specific traits, abilities or features of a player or used it to colour their opinion of them - so I'm not entirely sure where the concern is there.Ember Moon wrote:It doesn't have to be just PrCs, but honestly, it's not only an argument for evil. Character concepts where a facet of their existence needs to remain hidden, i.e. clerics of certain deities, or, hell, even a very paranoid shadowdancer - what about them?
- Kilaana
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Re: Player list
This is well said, and which I quote because Hagra himself makes a perfect example with his main character (no name, no spoilers).
Imagine if we could do away with having to enter an alignment altogether on a character sheet and rely purely on what is laid out in front of us via RP, I think being Evil could be less of a frustration. The problem is because it's how the engine's written, the alignment is clearly stated for the game's mechanic and for the DM's benefit, and that tends to place a conscious pressure on the player to perform his alignment. It becomes rather forced. You start out at Level 1, brand yourself LE/CE/NE, and must be evil from square one. It's a tough game to play unless you have a thoroughly convincing backstory. Unless the character was born a fiend, being Evil usually takes some getting there, in my opinion.
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Re: Player list
Personally, I always find it better to avoid sharing metagame-able information. We can all say we won't use that information, but we're all human..SOOO... Also, I find it can affect people's willingness to take action when they're afraid of accusations of metagaming. I've personally found myself uncomfortable making IC calls thanks to oversharing on the part of a player. I've been "victim" of a particularly irritating form of metagaming, when a player PMs you assurances about their character in an attempt to affect your perception of the character. Evil PC's player PMs people about how Good their PC is. Ugh. /rant
I think a culture of discouraging too much information floating around encourages less sharing of this information, and sets the server up to be a little more hardcore RP for everyone.
But, again--I feel that proclamations of "we're all above metagaming, right guys?" aren't conductive to less metagaming, they just encourage oversharing. I've seen PCs who were frankly terrible at being "evil" (or just doing questionable stuff) get away with things, blatantly--and they were always PCs of oversharing players. I want evil PCs to succeed, but I also want them to succeed for only legit IC reasons.
I think a culture of discouraging too much information floating around encourages less sharing of this information, and sets the server up to be a little more hardcore RP for everyone.
But, again--I feel that proclamations of "we're all above metagaming, right guys?" aren't conductive to less metagaming, they just encourage oversharing. I've seen PCs who were frankly terrible at being "evil" (or just doing questionable stuff) get away with things, blatantly--and they were always PCs of oversharing players. I want evil PCs to succeed, but I also want them to succeed for only legit IC reasons.
Re: Player list
The only real way to reduce metagaming is for players to avoid giving away too much OOCly. That way if someone metagames information about your character which has only been shown in backstory or offline RP, you can clearly call it out. I haven't really come across serious metagaming on TER and since PVP hasn't happened much (as far as I know), then seeing class/level combination on the player list isn't really much of a problem.
What hiding the class/level of a character on the player list would do is avoid accidental metagaming, in the sense that someone would metagame your character's abilities when just meeting them because the player caught a glimpse and, unintentionally, let it bleed through In Character. If it also brings some comfort to players who want to play Evil but are uncertain because it hasn't been done much on TER, then by all means there's no harm in this new feature.
tl;dr It's a good idea if only because there are no downsides to it, though I doubt it's going to have much of an impact.
What hiding the class/level of a character on the player list would do is avoid accidental metagaming, in the sense that someone would metagame your character's abilities when just meeting them because the player caught a glimpse and, unintentionally, let it bleed through In Character. If it also brings some comfort to players who want to play Evil but are uncertain because it hasn't been done much on TER, then by all means there's no harm in this new feature.
tl;dr It's a good idea if only because there are no downsides to it, though I doubt it's going to have much of an impact.
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