"Save or Die" Drown attack on water elementals

[Feronius]

Not a fan of instant death mechanics either. Any other effect would be an improvement in my eyes.
On this server, where character level is low and death penalties are high, instant death seems overkill.


Is it not possible to represent the drowning through a temporary, stacking constitution debuff or something? So that when a character is affected by this effect too often or too long, their low/ non-existing constitution score will make them drop dead or unconscious. Alternatively, you could consider something to do with cold damage? Since in a lot of cases, it is actually the freezing cold water that is the downfall for those who end up in the water.

I also like the knockdown idea. I was going to suggest a silence effect, since you are choking on water, but with a knockdown effect in place the silence would not accomplish anything. You are already unable to use spells when in a prone position/ knocked down.

[Kerstman]

Something that is a bit of a side step, but I think instant death mechanics -can- be very interesting. There is death magic for instance. On other servers there were amazingly built undead dungeon with a nasty necromancer at the end which was capable of such. I do agree that it should normally be reserved for higher level PC's to get that far in such a dungeon, but it is something that is a great challenge for those characters that have beaten nearly any place. Especially since there are various ways to shield yourself from such magic.

[Kilaana]

From the dungeon builder's notes, I am under the impression that this particular enemy could be avoided. It isn't an instant walk-in-and-die situation and was not meant to be. If this happened then the enemy was willingly engaged by PCs.

Certainly we can add in more flavourful warning signs, and I would also like to respect the builder's intentions for adding such a deadly encounter there.

[Vogelens]

The enemy had line of sight to the central tunnel/hallway. It technically -could- have been avoided, if we metagamed it. Waiting around a corner for it to pass by and move back, with only information we had that our characters would not.

As for death mechanics themselves, some servers do support then, and they can work. They however have to be announced in a way, like with undead it is more expected rather than a random cave. Also, there should be ways to deal with them. On TER, Death Ward is a high level spell, and there is only one character able to cast this, as far as I know.

If the water elemental is mean to be avboided, it should be moved further back and not made to walk with line of sight to the hallway connecting the others, in my opinion. And possibly some warning, if the death effect is meant to be there. No visual warning, by the yellow pop up text or placables is kind of bad, if there is a random, sudden difficulty spike. The small water elementals were easily dealt with, and hardly an issue. A sudden AoE death pulse was not expected. And really, the only real viable means to counter it and not risk dying is make use of tactics that kind of abuse the AI/mechanics, or are simply metagaming. This should is not something I feel should be encouraged.

[Kilaana]

We'll do what we can to see if things can be improved while respecting the builder's intent for the dungeon. I simply ask that players refrain from calling anything a bad design. We don't do this for a living and we are hardly game developers.

[Toros]

Something that is a bit of a side step, but I think instant death mechanics -can- be very interesting. There is death magic for instance. On other servers there were amazingly built undead dungeon with a nasty necromancer at the end which was capable of such. I do agree that it should normally be reserved for higher level PC's to get that far in such a dungeon, but it is something that is a great challenge for those characters that have beaten nearly any place.

Death magic is very binary. Generally either you die or it does absolutely nothing. Speaking to other servers, then how punishing death is affects how much of a problem instant death mechanics are.

Dark Souls for example has extremely minor punishments for death. It's expected and understood that a character will die multiple times in each area and thus the downside is minimal. On TER death is possible to avoid entirely, and the punishment for dying can be quite significant. Even respawning is rather riskly.

Especially since there are various ways to shield yourself from such magic.

Can you elaborate on the various ways to shield yourself? There is death ward, which only one character can cast, and exorcism which currently no character on the server is on pace to get.

We'll do what we can to see if things can be improved while respecting the builder's intent for the dungeon. I simply ask that players refrain from calling anything a bad design. We don't do this for a living and we are hardly game developers.

Respectfully, I disagree. I see no reason why calling an aspect of something bad design is disrespectful to the builder at all. Professional or not, people make mistakes or missteps and pointing them out so they can be corrected doesn't mean we think less of the builder. Build quality is one of the biggest strengths of the server, and that reflects the high standards that builders hold themselves to. By expressing our feelings on instant death mechanics, we as players are aligned with those standards. We want the server to feel balanced and fun, especially for new players, and feel that instant death mechanics don't accomplish that.

DnD/NWN has a number of what I consider bad design features. This server in particular does an excellent job of dealing with them (I could write several pages on this, but will refrain) and instant death (on both player and creature side) are one of them we historically have avoided. For players, instant death spells provide a chance to trivialize what should be a fun and challenging boss encounter. For enemies, they either kill an unaware player with no recourse or do nothing to a prepared player. In contrast with a fireball, which does more or less damage based on preparation, but always has some effect.

If we had players cast vanilla raise dead which carried no penalties at all, death in general wouldn't be very meaningful but the downside of instant death mechanics would also be minor. It's never a mechanic that makes things more fun (which is my definition of bad) but it certainly has counters. In a lower level environment that isn't the same as players lack the counters for such that begin to surface at higher levels.

With regards to a DC 20 AoE fort save or die, this has a significant chance of wiping an entire party without warning, and a very high chance of killing any individual character. It is terrible strategy to try to overcome instant death with a high fort save, because for anything other than a very specific race/class combination you're looking at a 20%-80% chance of failure. I don't consider it a valid solution.

Relevant quote from the man who literally wrote the book on strategy:

The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.

Instant death is again, binary. Either a party has death ward or a questionably metagaming strategy to counter a creature with an instant death mechanic, or they will avoid the creature or area entirely. With death ward it will probably be an easy and boring fight. Without it, a difficult and frustrating one.

Some of the best design I've seen is when there is an area that offers additional rewards for additional challenge and it is up to the party to make the decision if it's worth risking being too weak to finish the dungeon or they can take on the additional challenge. It provides a meaningful decision with a natural consequence.

I'm against instant-death mechanics both for players (and things like harm as well) and for enemies due to the binary of the mechanic, and because the counters in a low level environment are so limited.

Ostheim suggested the drown spell, which reduces current hitpoints by 90%, which I would consider greatly superior as an option. Putting a player in a difficult situation puts the pressure on them to find a way to survive or counter the mechanic. Poison and disease both apply pressure and encourage preparing counters, and generally make things more dynamic and interesting. The drown spell does something similar and while I prefer some sort of crowd control effect, it is much better than instant death, which removes all gameplay from the affected player.

[blatob]

Personally, I have no issues with someone calling the design bad, with the differentiation to the cases in individual fashion. The said spawn appears as singular creature. It spawns if the party has certain level. Expect such encounters in other dungeons too, ones that appear only if some party level is reached.

[Kerstman]

Against death magic there is the death ward spell. A level 4 priest spell, or 3 for those with protection domain. I can only think of one level 7+ priest, true. As it stands now, there is only one PC who can make death ward available, I think. But soon there should be more. My priest can cast it at level 5 since he has protection domain.

But next to the spell there are various shapes that provide a lot of immunities. Shifters ought to benefit from a number of immunities, when they take specific shapes. I am not at all saying that death magic should be common, but i would love it for some dungeons aimed at level 7 and 8.

[Toros]

Against death magic there is the death ward spell. A level 4 priest spell, or 3 for those with protection domain. I can only think of one level 7+ priest, true. As it stands now, there is only one PC who can make death ward available, I think. But soon there should be more.

There will be more, eventually as Serace and then Artemis hits 8. The first is probably a few weeks away, the second a year.

My priest can cast it at level 5 since he has protection domain.

This is technically true but I have never once seen your priest, and I suspect he doesn't get much playtime and thus doesn't factor into practical counters for the playerbase.

But next to the spell there are various shapes that provide a lot of immunities. Shifters ought to benefit from a number of immunities, when they take specific shapes.

We currently have no shifter players as far as I know, there is only one form that could provide death immunity, and it's not listed on the wiki as providing such.

I am not at all saying that death magic should be common, but i would love it for some dungeons aimed at level 7 and 8.

If the reward for such a place was similarly dramatic, and on a boss with forewarning, that perhaps could work here. It's not generally a very appealing mechanic and I'd like to see a stronger argument for what death magic adds over other offensive spells in terms of enjoyment for the players facing them.

[Poisonous]

To be honest, the truly fun/challenging/risky dungeons have so far tended to not be worth the risks, although I do them anyway. I would like to see such risks reserved for dungeons with great rewards, that can't just be treated as a grind.