Player list

Share an idea or post some constructive criticism for the server.
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Kerstman
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Re: Player list

Postby Kerstman » Sun May 07, 2017 8:31 am

I am very much with Ataraxia his tl;dr on this one. As for the whole metagaming stuff. It already has been discussed and it feels to me this is just a repetition of it. In the end I'd say we all pretty much agree on that topic anyway.
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Khaela Mensha Khaine
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Re: Player list

Postby Khaela Mensha Khaine » Sun May 07, 2017 8:55 am

Ataraxia wrote:The only real way to reduce metagaming is for players to avoid giving away too much OOCly.
I agree and disagree with this, in as much as - yes - if it's possible to avoid giving away metagame information then, for sure, don't go flaunting it. However, in the case of Evil characters, there are yet to be many active at one given time. Perhaps one or two, or as the server has had in at least one case, a group concept.

Now, in most instances, if something suspicious happens people are almost always aware OOCly of whether not it happened because of a DM event, because if anyone so much as catches as whisper of an event it spreads across the server like wildfire, either because of people sending Tells to each other or because of a post announcing the event on the forums.

And if people know it's not a DM event, every eye turns to 1.) the new folk in town or 2.) anyone even remotely suspicious, IC or OOC. As people we are inquisitive, we want to know all the juicy gossip. It's natural. But not very healthy for others' roleplay if we can't stop that affecting the way we treat their characters IC.

But I agree with your TL;DR / the rest of what you said. It has no downsides, but it won't make much impact on metagaming. I'm not exactly arguing against it, but if it is currently difficult to implement for the admins then for now it's best to simply look at what can be done in the feature's absence.
Poisonous wrote:Personally, I always find it better to avoid sharing metagame-able information. We can all say we won't use that information, but we're all human..

..I feel that proclamations of "we're all above metagaming, right guys?" aren't conductive to less metagaming, they just encourage oversharing..
The mindset of 'but I'm human' is not conducive to the abolition of metagaming, either. People can make every excuse under the Sun as to why a player's character is too obvious or too subtle - and by too subtle I mean that the characters in question aren't doing anything 'Evil' therefore how can they justify that alignment.

A genuinely, well-rounded Evil character tends to be defined by selfishness and morally questionable actions. They don't have to be selfish 24/7, they don't have to avoid being helpful at times and they don't have to be doing anything shady all the time. Some can be very subtle, but given the sparsity of Evil-aligned characters on the server, even the subtle Evils have to drop some hints amongst the Good or else be questioned by the DMs as to how their Evil alignment is justified. I have seen this happen.

No-one is above metagaming, it's an exceptionally difficult thing to avoid, but if anyones goal is to improve their RP then the questions in regards to metagaming that they need to ask - for anything, not just sussing out Evil characters - are these:

1.) Would my character realistically learn [x] information?
2.) Is my character honestly smart enough to figure [x] out?
3.) Am I using things I'm privy to OOCly to influence my character's actions here?

This is what can be done to improve our own roleplay, without relying on other people to avoid sharing OOC information. After all, that OOC information may be thrown around by someone else who figured it out themself, or who had to be made aware of it for a specific IC reason. Or it may just be made known by accident. Having OOC information is not valid excuse for a metagaming free-for-all.

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blatob
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Re: Player list

Postby blatob » Sun May 07, 2017 10:07 am

As for the PC list, with exception of 3 obviously evil PrCs, there is nothing to tell you that my fighter is not torturing captives in his free time, or doesn't work in the local mob protection racket. Do not like it, do not look at it. As for other instances - it is unavoidable that you metagame to certain extent and so far, as I have seen, it was always limited. Solution - do not read background section, for instance, and you will not be aware of any information about the PC you didn't get IC. Restrict communication in real life with the players.

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EventHorizon
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Re: Player list

Postby EventHorizon » Sun May 07, 2017 11:29 am

This thread has gotten into something way deeper than just the hidden vs default status of the player list.

When it comes to the balancing act of metagame issues, I view NWN RP like I view movies, books, and media in terms of spoilers. For the most part, I want to go onto a story without outside knowledge of "the answers" which the story's mysteries present. Some stories are more dependent on this mystery than others. I have come to learn, however, how to enjoy these media even with everything spoiled, by trying to experience the events through each character's perspective.

In NWN RP, the Evil PC's story is one of those that is more dependent on the mystery, particularly because the other actors' responses depend on the player's ability to stay true to their character's perspective despite having overwhelming evidence which would demand different behaviour, lest the character be played like a fool and abused. On the other hand, the very defining role of the Evil PC is to play your character like a fool and abuse whoever the Evil PC must abuse; that's what makes them Evil, and it's up to our cooperation as players to make for as believable as possible an opportunity for them to, while also providing as real consequences as would be expected for the Evil PC's failure. Ultimately, those consequences are not as real to me (and thus, not as fun) if I did not provide the opportunity to be abused in the first place, so I try to give players of Evil PCs the attacker's advantage.
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Re: Player list

Postby Vogelens » Sun May 07, 2017 11:41 am

People use the term metagame a lot. And pretty much everyone uses it wrong, in my opinion. In this thread it is solely used as a negative thing, something bad to avoid.

While metagaming in the way used here is mostly bad, metagame in itself, as the full definition is not always a bad thing. Levels in the player list can be used for an appropriate character, for example. There could be people with low and high level characters, they would know to log in a high level character with other high levels and low level for other low levels, if they plan to dungeon. Someone might want to bring a wizard to meet another wizard for that sort of RP as well. Or perhaps the group lacks a rogue, then the option to log a rogue is there.

This all could be done in tells in game and relogging but this requires tells which can distract from RP and break immersion for some, and reloading which can be a tedious chore in some cases, while that would not have been needed. There are pros and cons to a player list, in this regard.

Another example of metagaming that most do and that is not a bad thing, is the @locate command. Or talking in tells/oocly about what dungeon to do, or even where to meet for RP. Metagaming is a broad subject, it should not be just be taken as a negative thing based on just one of its many forms, I feel.
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Khaela Mensha Khaine
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Re: Player list

Postby Khaela Mensha Khaine » Sun May 07, 2017 1:53 pm

EventHorizon wrote:
Sun May 07, 2017 11:29 am
Agreed with everything you said, EH.
Vogelens wrote:
Sun May 07, 2017 11:41 am
People use the term metagame a lot. And pretty much everyone uses it wrong, in my opinion. In this thread it is solely used as a negative thing, something bad to avoid.
To speak of a facet of the term metagame is not using it incorrectly, because it's still an element of the word. In this thread one of the negative aspects of metagaming - to wit: unrealistic OOC knowledge of another players IC actions - are being discussed because it's on topic with the concerns raised by those who have spoken in favour of hiding classes and levels, as have the concerns about Evil characters and PrCs.

I'm not sure why that would need to be expressly stated when it is a natural evolution of the discussion. But if you do need that clarified, then yes, this has nothing to do with the @locate function or getting people together for convenience of a dungeon run or the like - it's strictly to do with OOC information about a characters IC details which may influence reactions to that character unfairly/unrealistically.

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Penegal
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Re: Player list

Postby Penegal » Sun May 07, 2017 2:44 pm

Khaela Mensha Khaine wrote:
Sun May 07, 2017 1:53 pm
...this has nothing to do with the @locate function or getting people together for convenience of a dungeon run or the like - it's strictly to do with OOC information about a characters IC details which may influence reactions to that character unfairly/unrealistically.
Agreed.

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Poisonous
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Re: Player list

Postby Poisonous » Sun May 07, 2017 10:23 pm

Khaela Mensha Khaine wrote:
Sun May 07, 2017 8:55 am
Poisonous wrote:Personally, I always find it better to avoid sharing metagame-able information. We can all say we won't use that information, but we're all human..

..I feel that proclamations of "we're all above metagaming, right guys?" aren't conductive to less metagaming, they just encourage oversharing..
The mindset of 'but I'm human' is not conducive to the abolition of metagaming, either. People can make every excuse under the Sun as to why a player's character is too obvious or too subtle - and by too subtle I mean that the characters in question aren't doing anything 'Evil' therefore how can they justify that alignment.

A genuinely, well-rounded Evil character tends to be defined by selfishness and morally questionable actions. They don't have to be selfish 24/7, they don't have to avoid being helpful at times and they don't have to be doing anything shady all the time. Some can be very subtle, but given the sparsity of Evil-aligned characters on the server, even the subtle Evils have to drop some hints amongst the Good or else be questioned by the DMs as to how their Evil alignment is justified. I have seen this happen.

No-one is above metagaming, it's an exceptionally difficult thing to avoid, but if anyones goal is to improve their RP then the questions in regards to metagaming that they need to ask - for anything, not just sussing out Evil characters - are these:

1.) Would my character realistically learn [x] information?
2.) Is my character honestly smart enough to figure [x] out?
3.) Am I using things I'm privy to OOCly to influence my character's actions here?

This is what can be done to improve our own roleplay, without relying on other people to avoid sharing OOC information. After all, that OOC information may be thrown around by someone else who figured it out themself, or who had to be made aware of it for a specific IC reason. Or it may just be made known by accident. Having OOC information is not valid excuse for a metagaming free-for-all.
None of what you've said here is really relevant to my statement.

I'm not making excuses for anyone (literally no one is), I'm expressing an interest in avoiding issues altogether. Where on earth have I expressed an opinion that the availability of OOC information is remotely an excuse for metagaming...? Not really understanding the point of the implication. It's a matter of comfort and prevention. Anyone who wants to avoid metagaming should realistically want to avoid accidents, too.

It's not difficult to avoid oversharing. Shit happens, and sometimes information gets out. But clearly there's benefit to limiting it where possible.

As a community we should support our evil PCs by preventing bad situations or accidental issues or simple human reality. It's better to avoid those situations than to have a community where people may start to forget where they learned information, or an evil PC feels targeted unfairly.

It's about prevention and making evil PC's players feel comfortable imo.
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EventHorizon
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Re: Player list

Postby EventHorizon » Thu May 11, 2017 9:18 pm

If I may add more directly to the topic, then, I think a lot of players start up NWN, connect to the server, and look at the player list to see if there is anyone on and what their names are so they can decide if they want to log on; but, they don't want to know the class information and levels, which, when you're looking at the names, is hard to avoid. I think that's the main case for using the info-hider for the player list.
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