Making Spirit Caller bard-friendly

Share an idea or post some constructive criticism for the server.
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Poisonous
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Making Spirit Caller bard-friendly

Postby Poisonous » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:03 pm

I realize this suggestion comes from an entirely selfish place, as it's an issue I've noticed only due to my own build.

Suggestion: Make Perform a class skill for Spirit Caller.

Problem:

Spirit Caller is a potential PrC for bards, however it has some aspects that are uniquely punishing for bards as opposed to other spellcasters. One, it requires the Requiem feat to buff your summons, and two, it does not have Perform as a class skill making it more difficult to invest points in a skill which most bard songs require. Bards' central mechanic is not their limited spells, it is their songs. While other spellcasting classes benefit from the reduced spell progression, bards who take Spirit Caller have their songs *fully* stunted. SC also has very low skill points, so it is difficult (if not impossible, I forget) to invest in Perform during SC levels.

I suggest that Perform be made a Spirit Caller class skill, to allow a little more synergy with one of the classes which can take it.

Thank you for reading!
Last edited by Poisonous on Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mother Kelda Adler, priestess of The Crying God, wife, sister, mother. [Retired: old posts here and here]
Manishie, wanderer and songbird. Not a fan of sausage. Typically in Songhall, Sayildi's, or wandering...
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Talisman
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Re: Making Spirit Caller bard-friendly

Postby Talisman » Wed May 04, 2022 6:25 pm

I've heard discussion of bard's reliance on Perform getting looked at so a change like this may need to wait until we are settled on Bard. Wouldn't want to revert the change after players invested in it. I like the idea as it captures the dirge singer concept and the requiem idea is clever, though.

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Poisonous
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Re: Making Spirit Caller bard-friendly

Postby Poisonous » Thu May 05, 2022 3:15 am

It's just weird needing to invest a feat to buff your own ghosts, after all, other classes don't need to spend a feat in order to cast spells on their ghost summons.

As far as Perform getting looked at - That would be awesome!
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Mother Kelda Adler, priestess of The Crying God, wife, sister, mother. [Retired: old posts here and here]
Manishie, wanderer and songbird. Not a fan of sausage. Typically in Songhall, Sayildi's, or wandering...
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Poisonous
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Re: Making Spirit Caller bard-friendly

Postby Poisonous » Tue May 17, 2022 9:05 pm

Now that I've reached SC 4, I have some general feedback to offer:

1. SC overall feels fun for the RP, but frustrating mechanically.
2. SC does not play nice with one of its root classes (see above).
3. SC has a number of frustrating and gimping mechanics to grapple with, namely the inability to bring summons with you into combat. A number of dungeons in the server use the "click transition" to different spaces within a dungeon, but also have ambushes which spawn directly over it. As the SC's only feature is its summons, SC is useless in these fights or forced to waste a summon. Recommend allowing SCs to call their spirits to them as an ability, even if once per day. The basic functionality of the class should work, and I can't picture a reason why a ghost can't follow you through an opening. This is really quite punishing because it can leave you without the only defense you have.
4. Power: Mechanically, feels about 1/2 the power of other classes due to two factors: gaining little, losing a lot. For example, other casters gain far more powerful summons at equivalent and even lesser levels, alongside many powerful abilities. SC only has fairly lightweight summons (gaining little), their stronger summons have very short timers and can only be summoned 1/day (gaining little, though 2/day at level 4...which is a huge investment). They trade half their spell levels (losing a lot), new spells (losing a lot), many skills and skill points (losing a lot). All but one of their available feats are very low power, the fear immunity is handy but everything else is pretty minimal in impact. Low DCs combined with minimal effects make for very little choice or excitement during leveling up.
5. On that note, there is really no capstone ability to speak of. You reach the max SC level and just feel like you've achieved the power you should have been a level or two ago, with more than one use/day of your stronger summons. The interesting and exciting bonus feats are locked behind level 5, which seems unnecessary, because the class is not terribly strong and appeals more to people willing to take the hit for RP. I recommend moving the available feats all down a level.

Some specific suggestions:
- The items listed in the above posts
- Move all feats down a level in accessibilty
- Make some or all feats a little more impactful. Nothing is sadder than a feat that never has an impact. Even Save or Die spells have an impact. SC feats suffer from a lack of impact due to low DCs, low power, and being situational.
- Allow SCs (and demonbinders too) to draw their summons to them 1/day.

Edit: tl;dr, SC feels like a Weak level 6, instead of a weak level 8. Some changes could be made to get it to the level of "weak level 8". Many SC abilities feel like they were nerfed out of fear of being too powerful, before they ever had a chance to shine.

Thank you for your time!
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Mother Kelda Adler, priestess of The Crying God, wife, sister, mother. [Retired: old posts here and here]
Manishie, wanderer and songbird. Not a fan of sausage. Typically in Songhall, Sayildi's, or wandering...
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cyberjesterb
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Re: Making Spirit Caller bard-friendly

Postby cyberjesterb » Tue May 17, 2022 10:05 pm

Having a character who has partnered with Manishie now in a lot of content I agree that she feels like perhaps a level 6 support class rather than an 8. I think it would be fitting to make the Bonus Feats that are currently locked behind Spirit Caller 4 available with the other things currently open at 3. And have Spirit Form and Spirit Blessing available as a capstone at 8 for a fully invested Spirit Caller. I don't think this would be overly powerful but would have a big fun win for someone who has invested a lot in a class that is already a bit of a power hit.
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