Level 12

Share an idea or post some constructive criticism for the server.
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Kerstman
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Level 12

Postby Kerstman » Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:21 pm

The title already gives it away, doesn't it?

Several years have passed and without me knowing the current status of E8 I still get the impression that it is still far out of reach. Is it not easier and perhaps 'better' to go for the alternative that is level 12? The point for which all of the PrC's were designed on the day that TER launched. I honestly think it will help TER if the place moves forward in a mechanical sense and many players have been awaiting and anticipating this move forward. In the past some other systems for slowing down progress were abandoned such as the xp cap and they've worked out well.

I can see some downsides to this, but those seem less trouble to me than building a new E8 system. I am not a scripter at all and I don't know the current state of E8, but that is the impression I have at least. Correct me if I am wrong. The issues with L12 I can think of right from the bat are that there may be some class balancing considerations as well as dungeon scaling matters. What I believe is what you get in turn is more enjoyment for players. Especially those playing PrC's.

Ofcourse if you still choose to opt for E8 then that is what we have to accept if we play here, but then I am very curious on the current state of progress on it. I don't want to apply too much pressure, but at some point it's also good to give the playerbase some perspective.
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Poisonous
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Re: Level 12

Postby Poisonous » Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:06 pm

I'm just going to poke my head in here, as someone who has been gone a very very long time and has only returned recently. As such I am aware that my opinion comes from a particular point of view: Someone who was present at the server's launch, and played here for...at least 2, maybe 3 years? I can't be sure. I left the server for a long time, for reasons that seem deeply unimportant now so many years later. I always looked back fondly on this server, as every place I tried since then came to be compared very unfavorably to TER. Among many things, TER's low-level, low-magic nature. Naturally I'd oppose anything that erased that unique low-magic feel of TER, even if I lack the understanding of mechanics to know where that line is really drawn.

Personally I'd rather have E8 than level 12, I think it would be healthier for the server overall, as the server is already balanced for it and higher levels increasingly risk a sense of high-magic setting. Looking at the level 12 spells for Wizards, for example, the spell list is concerning. Again, I'm not very good at mechanics and I don't understand the mechanical context of how these spells would change things in TER. But things like Acid Fog, Greater Stoneskin, Tenser's Transformation, etc, are likely going to be of concern.

However, I would caution against getting caught up on specific issues with 12 levels, and instead consider a few things:

1. Is E8 feasibly going to be implemented?
2. If not, would going up to level 12 be better than remaining at level 8 permanently?
3. If not, are there adjustments which can be made without much work on the part of developers, that allows for the desired benefits of post-8 growth without the high-power issues of level 12?

Point three is the one I want to point to as a potential compromise. And some of those potential compromises may be (in no particular order, nor am I suggesting all of them together...these are just ideas):

- Hard lockout on classes which become too powerful above a certain level. For example, maybe it would be impossible to take more than 8 levels in wizard/sorcerer and priest.
- Increased penalties to characters who level past 8. Such power comes with costs...perhaps attribute and HP penalties, in trade for more advanced abilities?
- Forced multiclassing, to prevent the issue of some classes being too powerful above a certain level (basically idea #1, but applying it to all classes so that none can go over 8 individually).
- Adjusting each class so that levels above 8 have drastically reduced benefits. Only 1 more HP, 1 more spell, etc.
- On a similar note to above, reducing every class's levels above 8 to nothing more than an additional feat choice.

Though really, that all winds up sounding like E8.

This is just my take, but I figure the appeal of post-8 character progression is that eight levels don't provide as much variety and room for interesting build choices as some may want. Especially when people can see PrC features just past their level 8 (I'm looking at you, beautiful level 5 Spirit Caller feats...!).
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Entheogen
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Re: Level 12

Postby Entheogen » Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:09 pm

I'm all for a level 12 cap increase if E8 is still years away in development but that would need to come with a content difficulty re-balance.
Its already bad enough that level 8s can essentially power-level new low level characters, I can only imagine level 12s.

I've brought up several post 8 progression ideas, in the form of trainers, feat/skill buying, hidden NPC trainers in the world, etc.
I'm sure there is an alternative solution as Poison mentioned.

A separate but similar line of thought would be re-balancing PrC skills/feats and requirements to bring them down to being attainable at lvl 8.
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Re: Level 12

Postby bestbardna » Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:18 pm

I think a level 12 cap increase would take away some of the server's uniqueness in being a low level server. I have a thought on how to implement E8 capability, but I'm not a scripting expert by any means when it comes to NWN.

From what I understand, there is a PC Hide item that you can apply attributes to. One of the attributes that could theoretically be added are feats.

What I would suggest, is that there be a trainer or tool or whathaveyou in game that you can interact with. The script would fire something like this.

1: Interact with NPC/Object
2: Script checks player's XP total. If XP is 33,000 or higher, proceed. If XP is lower than 33,000, conversation ends.
3: Script provides list of available feats.
4: Player chooses feat
5: Feat is applied to PC Hide item.
6: 5000xp is deducted from character sheet.

Of course, this could potentially be exploited if people select feats that they don't actually qualify for. I'm not sure if a second script could be implemented that checks for legal feat selection when a player logs in and flags them if they have illegal feats, or if a DM could just check occasionally.

Alternative idea, which may be more difficult to implement, but would certainly prevent players from cheating.

1: Set XP needed for level 9 to 33,000 xp
2: On "level up" character can choose their skills/feats/whatever.
3: Once a character completes the level up process, the script grabs what feat they selected, reduces their xp by 5000 (causing them to lose the level they just gained), and applies the selected feat to their PC hide item.
4: If a player chooses a prestige class as their level up class, then they may be able to select higher level class abilities as a feat. IE, an Arcane Archer might be able to grab +3 Arrows (So long as they had already taken the maximum amount of Arcane Archer levels).

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Re: Level 12

Postby Loreweaver » Sun May 01, 2022 7:36 am

It's more that there are roughly 600 new feats I'd like to have coded so that the system has some meat on it instead of being a choice between a handful of standard feats. Many of those feats have multiple variants such as choices of spell, skill, element or weapon type.
Additionally, they're going to need some changes to the way we handle mechanics behind the scenes and require all the level 5-6 spells screened and modified to work with the game balance, as they will be unlocked. It's also a good opportunity to revise a few other things that weren't entirely optimal, like the way we handle wild shape, or how Bard is very Perform-skill heavy and Blackguard is lackluster.
And then we have the temptation of using the new options for NWN:EE which weren't available when the E8 feats were conceived.

Letting characters pick an appropriate feat for the right price is not the issue. Having a decent layout so you can browse and navigate your options is the bigger challenge there.

Upping the level cap to 12 is always an alternative, as we'd only have to balance the spells and extend the base classes where appropriate, but apart from shifting the balance between caster and non-caster classes more towards the magical there's not really any gain. People hit the new cap, then sit there instead.

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Kerstman
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Re: Level 12

Postby Kerstman » Sun May 01, 2022 7:33 pm

I may be biased here. Certainly not for all, but definitely for several characters moving to level 12 will actually lead to immense rp opportunities. Ofcourse I am referring again to the PrC I play and there are other characters / builds for whom this would be the case too. The rest of your reply I can fully get behind, but then I wonder: can you give an update on the current progress of E8? I understand if it's very difficult to do and you cannot give an exact percentage. But an update now and then would likely be much appreciated by the playerbase. For all I care this is done yearly or twice per year and not every month, let alone every week.
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Poisonous
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Re: Level 12

Postby Poisonous » Sun May 01, 2022 8:59 pm

I do want to speak up and agree with Kerstman that a small gain in levels does have an effect on potential RP opportunities. Builds can affect RP, particularly for those of us who build our characters around our RP. My own character's RP would not be possible without Spirit Caller as a class, for example, and I'm careful not to roleplay more than what is enabled or implied in-game. A few more levels would allow for more opportunities, there are some cool things possible in the PrCs for example that are not currently possible.
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Talisman
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Re: Level 12

Postby Talisman » Wed May 04, 2022 6:13 pm

I think if we did lvl 12 we can't really do E8 and keep the players at a reasonable power level without also some serious monster upgrades, which then I fear pushes us out of low magic charm. However I wonder if most of we could release E8 without the full roster of 600 feats? Adding a few every few months might provide incentive to log in even during slow periods.

I also want to maintain martial classes being close in power to casters which goes out the window entirely at lvl 12. It's already caster leaning at lvl 8.

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Poisonous
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Re: Level 12

Postby Poisonous » Thu May 05, 2022 3:13 am

Talisman wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 6:13 pm
I think if we did lvl 12 we can't really do E8 and keep the players at a reasonable power level without also some serious monster upgrades, which then I fear pushes us out of low magic charm. However I wonder if most of we could release E8 without the full roster of 600 feats? Adding a few every few months might provide incentive to log in even during slow periods.

I also want to maintain martial classes being close in power to casters which goes out the window entirely at lvl 12. It's already caster leaning at lvl 8.
I think the idea is that e8 has been "in the works" for a very long time and doesn't seem like it is happening. So if e8 isn't happening, the next logical step is a simple addition to the levels allowed. I think honestly that going to level 10 would be the right fit -- 12 is a little high, 10 allows for some of the RP opportunities without going too high magic.

I do like the idea of e8 being released without the full roster of 600 feats though.
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